Visiting the U.K.- anybody know for sure about the laws?

[ckurts]

I'll be working in my company's London office for 3 weeks starting Monday. Now, I know for sure my Texas CHL is not gonna be too valid over there. Does anyone know for sure what the laws say about less-than-lethal weapons (OC spray, shockers), pocket knives (I really would not consider a knife for a weapon except as a last resort, not enough training), and self defense in general? Any sources?

 

[RH]

You might be able to call a mugger a bad name.

Notice I said 'might'. You might not, if they have begun to enact "hate crimes" laws like we have here.

 

[Dead]

I think thinking about a "weapon" is illegal in the UK... As for Self-Defence, I think that is outlawed too. I dont know UK law. I do think that country has it's subjects ready for the slaughter though.

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Dead [Black Ops]

 

[TAZ]

I think the law reads "Bend Over and Kiss Your A$$ Goodbye" or some such combination of bend over and a$$. Sorry to hear of your exile.

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"Liberty is never unalienable; it must be redeemed regularly with the blood of patriots or it always vanishes."
-R.A. Heinlein

 

[HankB]

If you're carrying a laptop computer, British Customs *may* decide to copy the hard drive and review it for anything they've banned over there.

If staying in London, remember to keep your hotel blinds drawn. The Brits have oodles of cameras monitoring their subjects all over the city, and in many places, they're oriented to look right into apartments and hotel rooms.

 

[David Scott]

Get yourself a hefty walking stick -- that's about all you can get away with. They call it a "Penang Lawyer". The Mayalsian city of Penang was once notorious as a place where legal issues were settled by breaking heads.

 

[WR Olsen]

David Scott said:
Get yourself a hefty walking stick -- that's about all you can get away with.

The last time I was in England I was stopped because I had a cane and told that it is considered a dangerous weapon.

The best defense in England is to remember the three magic words. "Feet Don't Fail"

 

[Jim V]

Find some teener on a motor bike and ask him where he got his MP-5 or Uzi. If he doesn't shoot you, he may answer.

Knives are on the no-no list, box cutters are on the list, pepper sprays are on the list, almost everything is on the list.

Combat boots are not on the list.

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Ne Conjuge Nobiscum
"If there be treachery, let there be jehad!"

 

[ckurts]

Well, how abot harsh language? Spit? Scary faces?

Y'all are really just too encouraging.

Hank B said "The Brits have oodles of cameras monitoring their subjects all over the city, and in many places, they're oriented to look right into apartments and hotel rooms." The manager that's sending me told me they have them all over the place, too. Only he seemed to think they were the greatest thing since pockets on a shirt. Go figure. As far as looking into my room goes, if some London Bobby really wants to watch a hairy old Texas fatboy going about his daily routines, they're welcome to the sight.

Both of my managers asked me not to talk about guns or hunting while I'm over there. I'm gettin' a reputation or something.

I will have a laptop with me. I guess I'll have to go though it myself after I get it from the Desktop support people and scrub any files that were left on it by previous users.

 

[Herodotus]

Yep, don't even speak yopur real mind when you are over there. They can throw you in jail on only a whim, as they have no concept of warrants or bail. No constitiution at all, you see and don't forget it.

 

[Oleg Volk]

My parents have gone to London last year. They were not freaked out too badly.

Personally, it has got *worse* than Russia AFAIK and there's no way I'd go to either of those places. Can you avoid going over?

To be honest, I'd quit if my company wanted me to go to some third-world hellhole and UK is on that list.

Oleg "USSR escapee" Volk

 

[ckurts]

No, Oleg, I can't avoid going over there. In this case it involves a promise- a man's only as good as his word.

I'm a fairly agreeable person, but I'm not the type to just huddle down and hide, so we'll just see what happens. Maybe it's time for me to go into "cornered rat" mode, huh?

As far as third world hellholes go, when you work for an oil company, "third world hellhole" becomes your middle name. This is the first time they're sending me overseas, though. We have offices in Caracas, Venezula and Calgary, Canada as well as projects in Algeria, parts of Asia, and all over South America.

When I lived in west Texas, we used to go across the border every now and then to do some shopping or just for a cheap fun weekend. I was able to stay out of trouble on both sides of the river and my Spanish isn't all that good (practically nonexistent, just words for food, survival, and mild profanity).

 

[The Lone Ranger]

Drop me a line, London is like 40 miles away.

 

[Gunter]

If you know Mexican weapons laws (i.e anything that might be used to hurt someone and isn't permanently attached to your body is forbidden), then you know british laws (it's called the assault weapons act); just that the police can't be bribed into letting you go...

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I see no elephant in my cellar. If there were an elephant in my cellar, I would surely see it. Therefore, there is no elephant in my cellar.

http://www.ety.com/tell/why.html

 

[Oleg Volk]

IF I were to go to such a place (and I would not), I would endeavour to acquire something along the lines of a PSM or a P32 on the spot, as well as a dirk. If you are good at concealment, a CZ52 might be a better choice because, if discovered, I would try to rub out the individuals who made me, bobbies included.

Since THAT way sounds like and is war, you can imagine how unlikely I'd be to put myself into a situation of that sort. Your word may be broken just as the religious laws of Judaism may be broken for one purpose only: to safeguard a life, in this case your own.

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Oleg "peacemonger" Volk

http://dd-b.net/RKBA

 

[buzz_knox]

I believe that under the current state of affairs, if you are mugged, you'll be charged with attempted murder for thinking about resisting, and with theft if you don't give him everything.

In fact, even thinking about either action consititutes resistance to the state's determination that the lives and livelihood of criminals is of greater importance than your life and well-being, so you can probably be charged with being a subversive terrorist as well.

 

[Al Mondroca]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Oleg Volk:
IF I were to go to such a place (and I would not), I would endeavour to acquire something along the lines of a PSM or a P32 on the spot, as well as a dirk. If you are good at concealment, a CZ52 might be a better choice because, if discovered, I would try to rub out the individuals who made me, bobbies included.[/quote]

Think about that, people. What Oleg has just said is the endgame position on gun control. Everyone here who has ever said anything like, "I'm never gonna register/license/surrender my guns" had better think long and hard about whether they're willing to do the same. The alternative is to meekly accept being sent to prison for years when (not if) your illegal weapons are discovered.

Oleg isn't talking about taking a few stormtroopers with him as they kick in his door. He's talking about killing John Q. Cop when said LEO discovers your gun during a routine traffic stop or interaction on the street. John Q. Cop may be a good guy--but you won't know that until and unless he decides not to bust you for it, and you probably won't know _that_ until he's already relieved you of it at least temporarily. Are you prepared to take that risk? Are you prepared to gun him down rather than risk going to prison for years or decades?

Because if you choose to own (or carry) a gun after they've been outlawed, those are your choices. You're much more likely to be nabbed in that kind of scenario than to go out in a blaze of glory fighting stormtroopers as they kick in the door. The latter merely requires desperation; the former requires a deliberate decision to view the cops as your enemy. If you can't or won't, don't kid yourself.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Since THAT way sounds like and is war, you can imagine how unlikely I'd be to put myself into a situation of that sort. Your word may be broken just as the religious laws of Judaism may be broken for one purpose only: to safeguard a life, in this case your own.
[/quote]

Exactly. Owning or carrying arms when you've been legally disarmed means that you are at war with the powers that be. And wars aren't won by desperate, last-ditch stands against stormtroopers. They're won by the willingness and ability to attack (and kill) the enemy whenever and wherever necessary.

You'd better know if that's your speed before you start.

 

[Oleg Volk]

I said this on ar15.com and ak-47.net where folks were enthusiastically talking about using scoped rifles to fight the enemy: civil wars are fought at conversation distances. If you can't shoot someone in the head point-blank knowing you can't get away in case of failure, you shouldn't be so eager for a war. Distance favors trained (and armored) opponents...we aren't that, generally.

Moreover, one must have the initiative once it gets to martial law and frisks in the street. That also means that when "they" make you and rub you out, your family might end up in crossfire.

I defer to the veterans on this forum to explain exactly why a civil war would be a long, nasty and painful nightmare beyond the imagination of most of us. I do very much hope that we won't get to play infantry in our lifetimes.

The only thing worse would be being subjects. Been there, done that, would rather be infantry. Molon labe!

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Oleg "peacemonger" Volk

http://dd-b.net/RKBA

 

[Al Mondroca]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Oleg Volk:
I said this on ar15.com and ak-47.net where folks were enthusiastically talking about using scoped rifles to fight the enemy: civil wars are fought at conversation distances. If you can't shoot someone in the head point-blank knowing you can't get away in case of failure, you shouldn't be so eager for a war. Distance favors trained (and armored) opponents...we aren't that, generally.[/quote]

Yup. The phrase, "a pistol-and-icepick war" gets used rather frequently on talk.politics.guns when the subject of a possible civil war/revolution/rebellion comes up (as it does fairly constantly).

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Moreover, one must have the initiative once it gets to martial law and frisks in the street. That also means that when "they" make you and rub you out, your family might end up in crossfire.[/quote]

That, too, get discussed on that usenet forum--along with sometimes heated discussions of just what can be done and should be done when the balloon goes up. A lot of good ideas (and a lot of bad ones) get tossed around. It's very...educational.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I defer to the veterans on this forum to explain exactly why a civil war would be a long, nasty and painful nightmare beyond the imagination of most of us. I do very much hope that we won't get to play infantry in our lifetimes.

The only thing worse would be being subjects. Been there, done that, would rather be infantry. Molon labe!
[/quote]

Amen.

 

[Eric Blair]

I just got back from a nice vacation in England.

Personal Advice? Stay in condition Yellow. Don't even think of letting your guard down.
I should elaborate.
I am MUCH happier, and feel safer in London, than I would in DC or NYC.
I am VERY, VERY, uncomfortable when I'm not carrying, but sometimes that can't be avoided. Like it or not, not many places allow you to protect yourself. You best bet is always to avoid the situation if possible.

That being said;
Englands crime rate, minus murders, is at the same rate of the US and passing on many areas.
Their constitution is an ORAL/historical one. Very odd concept. Just a matter of that's the way it was, that's they way it will be. Unless we decide to change our mind.
The use of force for personal defense is at best questionable. If you go even a inch over the min. necessary, expect to be nailed.
You do NOT have the right to remain silent. (Silence, by act of parliment, can be construed as admission of guilt.)
You do NOT have the right of assembly, religion, association, or speech that we have. (Supposedly we have them)
At best, consider yourself a pilgrim in unholy lands.

but...
If you get a chance, check out the Cabinet War Room. (Not to far from 10 Downing St.) They have a STEn, Sterling, 1911, and Wembly that were given to Sir Winston Churchill. They also have one of the first FN FAL's made for the Brits, also inscribe for Sir Churchill.
England has great beer, great food (ethnic, Indian/Thai/Chinese), great shopping.
With the Pound being so low against the dollar, it isn't nearly as expensive as it use to be.

Please feel free to contact me concerning fun touristy things to do.

Eric