Virginian squares off against Poland over rare rifle

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arch308

New member
I must side with Mr Gasior. I am amazed that "they" can just seize his personel property without some sort of "due process". I can see both sides of the argument as they both seem to have legitimate claims. Time will tell.
 
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TailGator

New member
Rather heavy-handed of Poland to seize it rather than to make him a reasonable offer to buy it, and probably less cost-effective, too, after legal fees are considered.
 
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steveno

New member
I'm curious as to why the Polish Government would be looking at ads , auctions and websites for guns for sale in the first place?
 
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Mikef262

New member
If they can do that then why shouldn't we take all the garands, carbines, and 45's from their people? If we can't have war trophy's why can they? I understand the rarity of the rifle at hand, but come on!
 
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overkill0084

New member
So, no warrant? No court proceedings? No nothing? Just go take it, on the word of some bureaucrat in Poland?
Since neither party can prove the provenance of the rifle, it seems to me that a tie goes to the current & apparently lawful owner.
 
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Glenn Dee

New member
Is the gun in Poland?.. sounds like it's in the U.S.... anyway... the gun is for sale no? Poland is I'm sure free to bid on it.
 
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Dixie Gunsmithing

Moderator Emeritus
I think its government thievery, myself, in that the guy does legally own it, and should be compensated for its worth, and should not be forced to hand it over. Also, if he doesn't want to sell it, it is in his right not to do so. To make it to the US, it would have had to have been approved right after WWII, like any other that was brought here. To me, that is as good as a bill of sale, and if they let Poland get by with it, then any other country could demand weapons back that was taken.
 
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Brian Pfleuger

Moderator Emeritus
Pretty sad that a whole friggin' nation can't be bothered to just BUY the darn thing. I mean, times are tough, but I don't think they're so tough that Poland couldn't muster $65,000 for a "national treasure".:rolleyes:
 
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MattShlock

New member
Pretty gun and pretty good article. OK, how many Polish lawyers does it take to steal a gun fro the U.S.? Not a joke... NRA Museum in Alexandria needs that gun!
 
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ChaperallCat

Moderator
its like most lost treasure. the ship sank in 1587 with 3000 gold coins, 800 pounds of gold ingots. the foreign government that owned the ship when it sank in the gulf of mexico has no interest in said treasure until a salvage team finds it, but once its found that country wants it back.

just look up the crap about the spanish fleet mel fisher found.

thing is they considered it destroyed, and had no interest until it went for sale. when the gun was brought into the us legally after the war, the polish government did not exist.
 
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Mike Irwin

Staff
There are numerous international treaties that cover the repatriation of looted, stolen, or otherwise illicitly appropriated cultural/historical objects.

This is a VERY sore subject for many nations around the world.

It's not rare for this kind of request to come up, particular with Greek or pre-Columbian antiquities. It's also come up quite a bit with regards to artwork since World War II.

A few years ago the Getty Museum in California returned a number of artifacts to Italy that were allegedly stolen. That one had an active criminal investigation/trial as part of it:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/26/arts/design/26gett.html?_r=0

Here's an interesting monograph on the treaty under which the Poles apparently made their request:

http://archive.archaeology.org/online/features/schultz/intllaw.html

This is the first I've ever heard of it coming up for a rifle, however.
 
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silvermane_1

New member
i still don't see how a Polish anti-tank rifle, albeit a pre-Nazi invasion and production run of about 3,500 rifles, can be consider a nation treasure, sure i understand they were a top secret rifle, but still a Polish national treasure? :confused:
 
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Double Naught Spy

New member
Pretty sad that a whole friggin' nation can't be bothered to just BUY the darn thing. I mean, times are tough, but I don't think they're so tough that Poland couldn't muster $65,000 for a "national treasure".
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Would you want to pay for something you thought was rightfully yours, especially if there was a way to get it back for free? In the end, this just may be a negotiating technique whereby they get the rifle for a lot less money. Right now, they know where it is and that it is secure.

At issue is the provenance, from the sounds of it. Nobody knows if it was a war trophy or not. Even if it is where the Germans got it, the Poles don't recognize that as a war trophy because it wasn't obtained "legally" and they don't consider that a war trophy can be had by an allied force. So it would appear that they are first rejecting the collector's ownership because war trophies can be by allies (hence recognizing trophies are okay) and then rejecting ownership because if it was a trophy taken by the Germans that it wasn't legal (now recognizing trophies as not okay). They are playing both sides of the argument.
 
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Mike Irwin

Staff
It's NOT the anti-tank rifle.

It's a semi-automatic rifle firing 7.92 Mauser ammunition (8x57), which was the standard Polish military round at the time.

It was by all accounts a rather good design, it was completely homegrown, and very few were manufactured before the German invasion. Fewer than a dozen are known, and the one in Polish hands isn't operational.

I can actually see why the Poles would be interested in having it back.
 
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GM1967

New member
It's a semi-automatic rifle firing 7.92 Mauser ammunition (8x57), which was the standard Polish military round at the time.

It was by all accounts a rather good design, it was completely homegrown, and very few were manufactured before the German invasion. Fewer than a dozen are known, and the one in Polish hands isn't operational.

I can actually see why the Poles would be interested in having it back.
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I can see why too, Mike. But rather than steal it from its rightful owner, why can't Poland cough up the money to actually pay for it?

Instead, everybody is going to lose, since the Poles will wind up probably losing more money in legal fees and man-hours spent on this issue, as will Mr Gasior, who will probably wind up losing in the end. The only winners will be the lawyers. Poland might feel some kind of vindication on getting what they consider their property back, totally forgetting that in the process they screwed the wrong person, and not the ones who stole their property in the first place.
 
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Double Naught Spy

New member
I can see why too, Mike. But rather than steal it from its rightful owner, why can't Poland cough up the money to actually pay for it?
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I will answer this again. They feel like the gun is theirs and taken illegally. From their perspective, why should they have to pay for something that they feel is rightfully theirs in the first place?

I would argue that the national treasure status is bogus. It was not a cultural artifact or of any scientific status at the time of its loss.
 
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