Video: 4 GG against 1 BG, Attempted Disarming Gone Wrong

[j-framer]

I don't usually start threads in the tactics section, but I ran across a video that serves as a grim reminder of how high the stakes are when attempting to disarm an adversary, and what the consequences can be if such an attempt fails. Seems worth discussing, though if it's been hashed over before, just let me know. I've never seen it posted here.

If you have a moment, watch the video here (only about 2 min.):

http://www.realpolice.net/police-video-3.shtml

It seems clear to me, at least from what the movie shows, that the decision to move on the bad guy was extraordinarily stupid (though gutsy), and almost certainly cost a life that would not have been taken had the four victims simply complied and handed over their property.

Aside from the issue of the actual decision to try to overcome the robber, what on earth went wrong once the fight started? 4 against 1? How could this relatively skinny bad guy maintain control of his dominant arm and hand sufficiently to continue to periodically get shots off - each one of which appears to actually hit one of the 4 victims?

How did these 4 people allow one of themselves to be killed, and another seriously hurt, quite a few seconds after the grappling had started, once the bad guy was already engaged? Did they understand they were fighting for their lives once the first guy went for the gun? At least 2 of the 4 seem quite lethargic during the opening moments of the disarm attempt.

 

[dwatts47]

Self defense goes way further than having a gun or not having one.

I saw no one try any offensive moves to incapacitate the shooter. They tried to maintain tactiacl control of the situation by controling the gun, but when that didn't work, no one choaked, punched, kicked or elbowed the shooter.

sad

 

[kayakersteve]

That video is truly upsetting - He probably was on drugs and as we all know, people can do things with enormous strength in that condition. Question I am left with --- If I was the BG, why would I attempt to rob 4 males at once; odds are against me?? Unless I was too drugged up to know better.

 

[C Philip]

I agree with dwatts47. It looked like all they were trying to do was control the gun, they did not seem to think to actually hurt the attacker. They can grab him all they like but unless they seriously injure him he can just keep on struggling.

 

[PhilA]

Were we watching the same video?

dwatts - I'm not sure what you saw, but I definitely saw a few of the guys punching the dude with the gun. I could have sworn (though not sure because the stairs obscured the view) I even saw one of them beating the guy's gun hand against the ground.

In fact, the guy who was killed was shot immediately after he threw a big overhand right. If his buddies had been controlling the gun hand, he might still be alive.

 

[ZeSpectre]

In a multiple-vs-one scenario like this, the four have a concern to avoid hurting each other, the one can just open up since he doesn't have any "buddies" to worry about.

To put it bluntly, the four guys got in each other's way and probably hindered the first guy who tried a takedown. The other issue was everyone "went high" going for the same targets (head, arm/gun, upper torso) again, getting in each other's way, and nobody went for the other areas (groin, knees, etc).

Sadly very VERY few people ever chat about this sort of thing with their close friends. Heck my own wife thought I was a little nutz at first when I started walking her through scenarios but quickly began to see the value of knowing how to get out of the way at first, and then when and how to come to my aid should we ever (God forbid) wind up in a situation.

 

[Hard Ball]

As you said "extraordinarily stupid."

 

[dwatts47]

PhilA:

I didn't say no one hit the guy, I said I saw no offensive moves to incapacitate the shooter. Pulling hair and throwing a weak hammerfist doesn't count toward incapacitation to me.

 

[j-framer]

As you said "extraordinarily stupid."

Relating to the issue of poor judgement/stupidity, something else struck me when I watched the video the second time around:

Notice the body language of the 4 young men in the time leading up to the fight, particularly the moments before the attempt, when the perp has just pulled the gun and is trying to control the foursome. Nonchalant, to say the least. They don't look very intimidated, or else they look as though they don't want to appear intimidated. In other words, I see signs of some dangerous, testosterone-induced posturing on the part of the vics, a little of the "I'm not impressed" swagger typical of many young males.

Now, I'm not suggesting that they should have groveled on the ground or anything, but failing to give an armed robber even the basic acknowledgment of raised hands speaks volumes to me about the mindset that was governing their actions at that point.

Look at the guy on the far left at minute 1:25, as he sashays confidently to his left, apparently trying to flank the BG. That's ballsy for someone who has no real idea of how stable or trigger-happy the robber might be. It just doesn't look from the video as though his actions were motivated by fear that the BG was going to shoot the 4 regardless of whether they complied or not, but rather by a desire to one-up the impudent jerk who thought he was calling the shots just because he had a gun. But, then again, who am I to say? I wasn't there.

Neither here nor there, really, as it doesn't affect the tactics used, or mistakes made, once the struggle got going. Still, it does look as though most or all of the 4 were carrying a certain attitude from the get-go, and that this attitude may have influenced the decision of one of them to try his luck, essentially condemning two of the four to death/serious injury.

 

[CrazyIvan007]

2. Did you see in the beginning when he lowered his gun? I would have immediately launched myself at him and rammed his skinny ass through the glass door.

3. The guy who intervened first swatted away the dudes arm. What keeps him from bending at his elbow and pointing it at you again? Just as he did...Obviously your first priority once you engage is to keep the barrel from being pointed in your direction. You always disarm someone with a handgun by attacking belowthe elbow first, and if you can at the lower arm/wrist. The other guy who began to move around the guy toward the guns barrel direction...DOH! Then he was leaning over the group with his hand in a "I'm gonna get me some of that" stance...pfft, you can't fit in the dogpile, get the hell out!

4. It looks like it is a revolver. If you can't immediately take the gun, then immediately follow up by putting one of your fingers behind the trigger, keeping him from taking a shot.

5. The other hand goes for the eyes, throat or groin. Poke, prod and squeeze with all your might until something pops...and beyond.

6 to 1. Don't let someone you don't know into a controlled access entrance.

I feel bad for the guys, they didn't deserve to be attacked. Things are so up in the air in these situations and bad things happen. To reflect on it in the aftermath, as I have done, can be bad. But, I hope it contributes to people giving a thought to a situation before it actually happens.

Thinking about something like this before it may happen is much more valuable than it happening and never having thought about it at all.

Thanks for the thread j-framer.

 

[Kruniac]

I might be making an assumption here, but my experiences as a "hick" with my younger brother and me always beating each other around comes in handy in "instinctual" defense.

You pointed out that obviously one should go for BELOW the elbow in that type of situation. I honestly thought to myself "What kind of idiot would go for the bicep/whatever - they really could just bend their arm, thats what its used for."

However, I realized then that some people dont get into altercations with anyone. Some people havent ever been punched, or punched another. Some folks just havent wrestled around with another person, learning that foot-in-back-of-knee+rear-choke=fubar.

Anyone come to any realizations like that? That conflict (not really "violent" conflict, or "spiteful" or "lethal" conflict) promotes awareness and even instinctual defenses?

 

[CrazyIvan007]

Kruniac,

That is as it goes in the Animal Kingdom.

Everyone has seen the nature shows with lions. The cubs wrestle and goof around, but it hones their skills, balance and ability to survive in the wild. Most mammal juveniles do this and it is always to their benefit.

 

[Tanzer]

It seems clear to me, at least from what the movie shows, that the decision to move on the bad guy was extraordinarily stupid (though gutsy),

Yes (probably) BG already has the drop. We don't know all the facts, but apparently, this is true.

Just for the sake of discussion, let's address this;

Aside from the issue of the actual decision to try to overcome the robber, what on earth went wrong once the fight started? 4 against 1?

My MA training is outdated, and I hate to armchair quarterback, but watch at 1:20 into the video - the initial move. Please, do not make me out as a "Chuck Norris wannabe" here, I'm just going along with the thread;

True, a gunman does not expect you to move IN on him, but you do not move in on a full frontal lunge. Three P's Parry, pivot, punch. Basically, a big step with the left leg (for most righties) with a left had parry to the wrist of the shooter's gun hand, hopefully maintain a hold on it, a full pivot on the left leg to add force as you come around and backfist his face with everything you've got. Now you have choices. His gun hand is against your back and you have leverage. You just might find the opportunity to flip him with a basic Judo throw (wouldn't that be nice), OR other options including but not limited to;
One of your buddies can make hamburger out of that gun hand while another does the same with his face.
YES, I know I sound like I'm wearing a commando outfit. Let me emphasise this is for discussion. Please don't consider me an "internet hero"-I'm not going there. I think maybe Samurai and BikerRN among others are MA guys with a lot more modern training than myself.

 

[Kruniac]

Along the same lines as "Dont consider me an armchair Norris", Left arm grabs offending wrist (controlling the weapon's aim), right arm comes under the offending arm, joins with left hand to bring that wrist away from your body, and hopefully breaks the arm at the elbow (or dislocate, however it happens).

If you try it out with a friend (obviously practicing), you'll find its a natural and rather easy way to get anything out of an attacker's right arm. I dont really know martial arts, just what I can pull off in a hand-to-hand rumble, and its not akward or really even complicated.

Once again, left hand gets the offending wrist for control. Pull that wrist to your left (not towards you or towards the attacker). Right arm comes under the offending arm, grasping your left hand's knuckles (therefore "clasping" the offending wrist with both hands, essentially), then that arm cannot do anything to you. Move left hand (along with offending wrist) towards the enemy WHILE moving your right arm in an elbowing motion behind you.

I mean, you would most likely get shot by anyone expecting a rush, but if you COULD pull it off, then hats off for surviving an encounter like that.

 

[markj]

Dis arming a person should be taught to you in person by a qualified instructer. Do it wrong you may end up with a hole in ya.

Do not be macho, it isnt a bad thing to get away from danger. Confrontation may get you shot up. Think before you react.

 

[MyXD40]

I have to say I would have done the same thing honestly. But then again I've gone through some training on how to remove such a weapon from a suspect at close range.

But then again, I also always have my gun with me so who's to say..

Either way, I think the main issue is there was 4 to 1. And becasue there was four guys trying to control one guy, it ended the way it did. Had there have been just two guys, I think the outcome would have been different.

 

[Glockeroo]

I am a black male, and it is individuals like this moron that gives descent, law-abiding african americans like myself a bad rap. This tool deserves to be drawn and quartered. My sympathy goes out to the families of the victims. I carry daily because of dirtbags like this, and I would not hesitate to put one down if I feel my life is on the line.

I apologize for the actions of this loser, for he does not represent us as a whole.

 

[Doggieman]

not so sure this was stupid

what was stupid was letting in some dude like that without even thinking.

But let's face it, I think if you re-ran that situation a bunch of times, you're better off in an enclosed area like that trying to disarm the perp. If you go down, at least you go down fighting. I've seen those vids where the perp robbed the people then decided to execute them right there.

And I think the person is right who said the situation would have been better with fewer people. If you've got a bunch of guys and a gun and shots ring out you can bet somebody's going to get hit.

 

[Willie D]

They don't look very intimidated, or else they look as though they don't want to appear intimidated. In other words, I see signs of some dangerous, testosterone-induced posturing on the part of the vics, a little of the "I'm not impressed" swagger typical of many young males.

I read an interview with a cop who said that people most often get shot in muggings when they say, "What are you gonna do, shoot me?" or "Go ahead, shoot!". Dumb to challenge someone who needs only to squeeze one finger to win the arguement.

 

[odsixer]

I have some training in Krav Maga. The first thing we learned in the knife defense (which is similar to the gun defense) is after blocking/deflecting the weapon, STRIKE...give the attacker the best Sunday punch you have and KEEP ATTACKING HARD(as mentioned eyes throat groin are best). The big mistake most people make is focusing on the knife or gun instead of destroying the person with the gun. As long as the attacker is worried about his head getting crushed he isn't going to worry about much else.

Having said that, training has shown me that I never want to be in this situation and I'd like to think I would have given up my wallet instead of getting shot. I don't think this guy would have shot all four of them after but I guess you never know

Very sad,hopefully this piece of crap get's what he deserves