Veterans Targeted Again?

Uncle Buck

New member
The below article says the current administration has found a way to circumvent the laws regarding military veterans. I am afraid we will end up in the situation were people that really need the help will not be able to get it.

Another article I read, read subject, says they have enacted this law with-out a due process required. (The other article is more political and I have not attached it.)

https://www.usjf.net/2014/01/gun-owners-mentally-ill/

Have you folks heard of this and is it really happening, or is it a fundraising ploy for this organization?

A few years ago I asked a similar question about veterans who needed mental health care and who were afraid to get it because of this. Vanya provided a great answer. I was able to use it to get a few youngsters to actually seek the help they needed.
 

ClydeFrog

Moderator
My view(s)....

These topics were hotly debated post-Sandy Hook in 2012/2013 on TFL.
I'm a US military veteran(honorable discharge) & I worked briefly as a federal employee in the US Dept of Veterans Affairs, www.VA.gov .
IMO, those with serious, diagnosed mental health conditions or those who get social benefits/disability(public $$$) for mental health conditions shouldn't be allowed to own-use guns or get CCW licenses(gun permits).
The tragic murder of former SEAL sniper Chris Kyle(author of American Sniper) & another veteran on a gun range by a USMC combat veteran with PTSD shows how unstable & volatile some veterans may be.

Some make the valid argument that combat veterans can't be responsible for their mental state due to their military service/documented injuries which is true to an extent but I wouldn't want to incur the risk or feel that a violent event/shooting could have been prevented.
It's a social debate that has good points on both sides.
 

thallub

New member
The article at the link is 100 percent trash. It's a political rant. The article is, at best; a gross distortion of the facts and, at most, an outright lie.

i'm a long time advocate for disabled veterans. i know dozens of veterans with PTSD. None are a threat to themselves and/or others.

Obama is attempting to implement the NICS Improvement Act of 2007. That act had broad bi-partisan support in both houses of congress and was signed into law by the previous president.

Some states have implemented the NICS Improvement Act of 2007; many have not. Indiana is one of the states that have fully implemented the NICS Improvement Act of 2007. This how the Indiana law works:

www.in.gov/judiciary/admin/files/pubs-trial-court-36...

More:

http://insurancenewsnet.com/oarticl...rengthen-the-federal-background-a-442770.html

There are dozens of variations on the "Obama is going to disarm veterans" theme. One claims VA doctors are asking veterans if they own guns.
 
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Uncle Buck

New member
Thanks. I am also a retired veteran, 24 years of service. I stay in touch with some of the folks who worked for me when I was active duty and interact with others still on active duty.

I had a feeling a lot of this is political trash, but what concerned me was the fact the article stated these rights were being denied with no basis for appeal.
 

TomL

New member
Veterans targeted again

ClydeFrog; What exactly do you, and what did you do "briefly" while at the VA that you would use to determine which Vets are "serious"? Surely because a Vet gets a disability stipend would not be detrimental, but if so what about the millions of non military folks collecting benefits as you mention? SSDI is one that covers some serious health issues does it not?
It appears by your example of the death of the Seal that you wish to put all vets with medical issues in one box, curb their rights and make them criminals in the bargain.

BTW the VA Dr's are asking Veterans if they own firearm(s). When asked why do you wish to know the pat answer is "we are concerned about Vets hurting themselves". Um Hmmm, so one cannot hurt his/herself with a butcher knife/paring knife/scissors/single edge razor or having to walk up and down a flight of stairs daily? Those questions are not asked, only the firearm question.
 

thallub

New member
BTW the VA Dr's are asking Veterans if they own firearm(s).

None of the dozens of disabled vets i talk with have ever been asked this question by anyone at the VA, neither have i.
 

chris in va

New member
IMO, those with serious, diagnosed mental health conditions or those who get social benefits/disability(public $$$) for mental health conditions shouldn't be allowed to own-use guns or get CCW licenses(gun permits).

Excuse me? So my girlfriend that has diagnosed bipolar and is well stabilized on medications should hand in her concealed carry permit? What the hell man. I'm glad you aren't in a position to make laws.:mad:
 

ClydeFrog

Moderator
Fair?....

Is it fair or ethical for a veteran(or anyone else) to claim a disability or pension or benefit/$$$ because of major mental health problems(psychotic behavior, suicide attempts, domestic violence, etc) then go & get a valid CCW/gun permit/hunting license?
I say no. Now 1000s of people get treatment or medications everyday w/o incident. But would you want to be in a critical incident like the Chris Kyle murder scene or a mall shooting because someone "went off"?

I could live with new gun laws or state statues that allowed disabled veterans(with diagnosed mental health conditions) to carry concealed guns/hunting licenses but I won't support it.
 

STEINER

New member
I am a four year Vet. HD. The men and women that are being treated for
PTSD should not own a firearm. I don't like it but the two don't mix.
Be careful what you ask for.
 
Buck, don't worry. Thallub is correct. That article is inaccurate and irresponsibly so. The author is using a few buzzwords (Obama executive orders?) to scare folks.

There seems to be no shortage of that foolishness lately.
 

thallub

New member
Is it fair or ethical for a veteran(or anyone else) to claim a disability or pension or benefit/$$$ because of major mental health problems(psychotic behavior, suicide attempts, domestic violence, etc)......[/

QUOTE]

PTSD is none of that stuff.

No one knows for sure what was wrong with Eddie Ray Routh that caused him to murder Kyle. So far as i know he has defied mental classification. He could be bi-polar, a paranoid schizophrenic, had a traumatic brain injury or something else. Doctors, VA and otherwise, tell me there are tens of thousands of undiagnosed traumatic brain injury cases related to combat in Iraq and Afghanistan.

All we know is that Routh claimed to have PTSD. Some folks jumped on the PTSD thing right away.

Routh’s days at the Erath County Jail have not been placid ones. He was tasered by a guard a few hours after being booked, and his combativeness kept a mental-health expert from even completing her assessment of whether he is competent to stand trial—a question that remains. In a recent episode, Routh yanked his television from the wall, blocked his shower drain, and tried to flood the cell. He cannot sustain a cogent conversation.

One needn’t be at all sympathetic to Routh’s travails to grant that his psychological distress (and his inability, before the shooting, to get proper treatment from the Veterans Affairs facility in Dallas) factored into the tragic events in February. He has, however, received no counselling from the V.A. since late January.

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blo...eterans-on-trial-after-chris-kyles-death.html

Routh, a member of the Marines Corps Reserve, was first taken to a mental hospital Sept. 2 after he threatened to kill his family and himself, according to police records in Lancaster, where Routh lives. Authorities found Routh walking nearby with no shirt and no shoes, and smelling of alcohol. Routh told authorities he was a Marine veteran who was suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder.

"Eddie stated he was hurting and that his family does not understand what he has been through," the report says.

Routh's mother told police her son had been drinking and became upset when his father said he was going to sell his gun. She said Routh began arguing with them and said he was going to "blow his brains out."

Police took Routh to Green Oaks Hospital for psychiatric care.

Dallas police records show Routh was taken back to the same mental hospital in mid-January after a woman called police and said she feared for Routh's safety.

Green Oaks will not release patient information, citing privacy laws. Most people brought by police to the hospital are required to stay at least 48 hours.

In another brush with authorities, Lancaster police in May responded to a burglary reported by Routh's mother that included nine pill bottles. Police say Routh was involved but no other details were available.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/...ptsd-suspect-chris-kyle-murder_n_2621764.html

The warning signs were there. It was much more than PTSD.

Much has been made of the PTSD thing by anti-gunners, those who know nothing about PTSD and those who really hate to see veterans compensated for disabilities incurred in the service of this country.

A couple days nearly every week i'm out hog hunting/hog trapping with two combat veterans who are diagnosed with PTSD. You would not know either has PTSD. One has a non-violent "episode" as he calls it about every six months. Won't see him for a few weeks then he's there one day ready to hunt: Same old guy.
 
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SIGSHR

New member
Speaking from the vantage point of a long retired (since) 1998 LTC, USAR and a Vietnam veteran, it seems to me that "Psych Eval" has become the all purpose substitute for leadership and talking things over with the troops and this administration is using it the same way the USSR after Stalin used "psychiatry" to discredit dissidents.
Yes, those "diagnosed" with "PTSD" ("He can't help it, he's mental") should not be allowed to own firearms. Or consume alcohol or use other drugs, or operate motor vehicles or other machinery. Or reproduce. Or vote. But since when did rights become contingent on psychiatric examination ?
 

ClydeFrog

Moderator
Guns & mental health....

So if a person(or veteran) says; I'm going to kill myself. We should say; okay here's your new CCW. :confused:
There are people & military veterans with serious conditions that adding guns to might do more harm than good.
FWIW; I wouldn't want anyone with a violent temper, arrests for assaults/fighting, anti-social(threats, hate crimes, etc) going out & buying a pile of guns. :eek:
 

Uncle Buck

New member
In my experience, and I am no professional Head Guy, I have met more guys who just needed someone to talk to and have been there, done that.

Only one I have ever interacted with has ever needed to have his freedom suspended for an extended stay. I am still in contact with him and he finally agrees he needed the "Professional" help.

I understand erring on the side of caution, but I find people tend to paint groups of people with a very broad brush stroke.

Maybe it is losing the peer group with which someone identifies with, after they are discharged. Maybe losing the sense of comradery and the identity the group has together.

Maybe the 'trophy' generation can not handle not having the spotlight after they are discharged.

I believe the PTSD is thrown around too much and is used as a catch all. But I am glad that Thallub answered the question, because I still want these guys to be able to talk to someone in a professional capacity while I am able to be here in a friend capacity.



Again, thank you very much.
 

thallub

New member
because I still want these guys to be able to talk to someone in a professional capacity while I am able to be here in a friend capacity.

So do i. It is very important that the combat veteran have veteran friends he can relate to and who understand what he/she is going through.

When WWII ended in 1945 there were 12 million troops on active duty. By 1950 that number had dropped to 1.5 million. Those veterans took care of each other and i remember them very well. If a guy was having problems his fellow veterans rounded him up and saw that he was taken care of. There was a catchall term for what was wrong with some of those guys-"shell shock". The vast majority of those veterans got over their "shell shock" and did very well in life.

Most veterans filing disability claims today are not vets of Iraq and Afghanistan, they are Vietnam and Gulf War vets.
 

lostintheozone

New member
I'm also a vet, 67-71. I saw some seriously unstable people while in the service. Combat truly takes it's toll. Look at the suicide rate of combat vets. If a combat troop claims a mental disability they have no business with a gun. It really isn't fair but if you had seen what I did you would know why I said that.
 

Sierra280

Moderator
I quick look at vets suicide rate should be enough to know there are some serious mental problems that MORE than justify mental instability arguments. As for Chris Kyle, I've seen vets have episodes during 4th of July fireworks shows, What the hell was he thinking brining someone with PTSD to a shooting range?

Back to the OP, this isn't anything new. Cut vet benefits, cut state retirements and pension, cut unemployment, food stamps, etc. Just another case of our goverment taking advantage of those who can't very well defend themselves from the legislative/legal system. (Not many lobbyists for vets or the poor).

BTW, IMHO the greatest american sniper ever, had a white feather in his hat;)
 
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