Given the recent threads about "What would you have done" on the vet beating vid clip, I'd really like to know what an on duty LEO would have or should have done had they witnessed the incident. I figure I can get as far as "call for backup", thanks. How would you (or would you even attempt to) stop the situation?
Vet beating - What would a LEO have done?
- Thread starter Groundhog
- Start date
Funny, I was just talking to a family member of mine whose a relatively new police officer in a big city department, who was telling me about all the situations in which they aren't supposed to get involved in, but are supposed to keep people away from a dangerous person, and wait for backup from a specialized unit. This specific situation was not covered, and given the particular circumstances here, where someone is obviously in danger, I'm sure he would be expected in intervene. I bring this up, only because I've known police officers in other departments who are expected to get involved in anything short of a barricade or hostage situation, because back up is more than minutes away. I guess different places have different rules.
That said, police officers generally get paid to stop crimes in progress, and have both legal and physical tools to help them. If a uniform cop can't get the guy to stop just by making their presence known, they can Mace/OC the guy. If they have Tasers, that would be an option. Thirty years ago or a little bit more, they might have just slapjacked the guy from behind. I've know cops (my old man included), who blackjacked or sapped people for less, back when.
All that said, having been given little more than cursory instruction in using a nightstick, I can tell you that a baton gives you a big advantage in a fist fight.
That said, police officers generally get paid to stop crimes in progress, and have both legal and physical tools to help them. If a uniform cop can't get the guy to stop just by making their presence known, they can Mace/OC the guy. If they have Tasers, that would be an option. Thirty years ago or a little bit more, they might have just slapjacked the guy from behind. I've know cops (my old man included), who blackjacked or sapped people for less, back when.
All that said, having been given little more than cursory instruction in using a nightstick, I can tell you that a baton gives you a big advantage in a fist fight.
Capt. Charlie
Moderator Emeritus
In responding to a serious crime in progress such as this, officers are strongly encouraged to coordinate their approach so that at least two officers arrive on scene within seconds of each other.
However, it does occasionally occur that a solo officer comes upon a crime in progress. He doesn't have the luxury of retreating or laying back until backup arrives. He has to act. There's risk associated with this job; that's a given that we all accept.
Radioing out and requesting backup is primary, but what happens after that will depend on the individual situation, surroundings, and a host of other things that the officer will have to assess in seconds, and act accordingly. This is where training comes in.
Usually, when a cop shows up in a marked unit, someone yells "five oh!" and everyone splits
. If that doesn't happen, you know automatically you're going to have a fight on your hands, weapons or not. At this point, in something as serious as a carjacking, the officer should escalate immediately to a point/aim with his weapon and issue verbal orders.
If the suspect doesn't comply and flees, Tennessee vs. Garner would apply and deadly force would be justified (although in most cases, a foot pursuit would ensue to attempt an apprehension.) If the suspect physically confronts the officer, he (officer) is going to have to make a split second judgment of whether or not he has a reasonable and justified fear for his life. If he does, deadly force is justified. This would be especially true if the BG's friends decide to get in the act. Then you try to delay and detain until backup arrives, and most importantly, watch your six. You don't want to get surrounded.
In this case, after the arrest was made would be one of the toughest times for any officer. Believe it or not, cops are human too , and the desire to beat the crap out of that slime-bag would be overwhelming. Most though, would remember that they're professionals, curb their emotions, and do their jobs honorably, and for that alone, they should get a medal.
However, it does occasionally occur that a solo officer comes upon a crime in progress. He doesn't have the luxury of retreating or laying back until backup arrives. He has to act. There's risk associated with this job; that's a given that we all accept.
Radioing out and requesting backup is primary, but what happens after that will depend on the individual situation, surroundings, and a host of other things that the officer will have to assess in seconds, and act accordingly. This is where training comes in.
Usually, when a cop shows up in a marked unit, someone yells "five oh!" and everyone splits
. If that doesn't happen, you know automatically you're going to have a fight on your hands, weapons or not. At this point, in something as serious as a carjacking, the officer should escalate immediately to a point/aim with his weapon and issue verbal orders.If the suspect doesn't comply and flees, Tennessee vs. Garner would apply and deadly force would be justified (although in most cases, a foot pursuit would ensue to attempt an apprehension.) If the suspect physically confronts the officer, he (officer) is going to have to make a split second judgment of whether or not he has a reasonable and justified fear for his life. If he does, deadly force is justified. This would be especially true if the BG's friends decide to get in the act. Then you try to delay and detain until backup arrives, and most importantly, watch your six. You don't want to get surrounded.
In this case, after the arrest was made would be one of the toughest times for any officer. Believe it or not, cops are human too
, and the desire to beat the crap out of that slime-bag would be overwhelming. Most though, would remember that they're professionals, curb their emotions, and do their jobs honorably, and for that alone, they should get a medal.Al Thompson
Staff Alumnus
Tennessee vs. Garner would apply and deadly force would be justified
I think there should be a "not" between the "would" and "be".
I think there should be a "not" between the "would" and "be".
Capt. Charlie
Moderator Emeritus
Tennessee vs. Garner is extensive in its entirety and addresses more than the use of deadly force, Al. For that reason, I had difficulty finding a synopsis of the decision as it applies here from a reputable source. However, here is a part of the deadly force policy from the Hartford, Conn. PD:
http://www.hartford.gov/police/FAQS/firearms.htm
This, of course, is a last resort, but it essentially mirrors the policy of most departments nationwide. This situation definitely qualifies, and his escape would most certainly present a serious and ongoing threat to the safety of other people.
If you want to wade through it, the entire decision of the SCOTUS on Tennessee vs. Garner can be found here
http://www.hartford.gov/police/FAQS/firearms.htm
This, of course, is a last resort, but it essentially mirrors the policy of most departments nationwide. This situation definitely qualifies, and his escape would most certainly present a serious and ongoing threat to the safety of other people.
If you want to wade through it, the entire decision of the SCOTUS on Tennessee vs. Garner can be found here
FirstFreedom
Moderator
Capn Charlie has given a good reasoned response as to what trained LEOs could and should do, depending on the circumstances.
Not being an LEO, I am not so constrained. I would have shot the bastard and taken my chances with the system. Not necessarily kill, but shot to stop the deadly attack. Multiple head blows to an eldery person IS a deadly attack potentially.
The old veteran's response to the situation in the interview is unbelievably calm and reasoned. He saw a heck of a lot worse in the early 40s - that was nothing to him. Tough old man!
Not being an LEO, I am not so constrained. I would have shot the bastard and taken my chances with the system. Not necessarily kill, but shot to stop the deadly attack. Multiple head blows to an eldery person IS a deadly attack potentially.
The old veteran's response to the situation in the interview is unbelievably calm and reasoned. He saw a heck of a lot worse in the early 40s - that was nothing to him. Tough old man!