Utility Scout Rifles

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Scribe

New member
I would be interested in hearing from anyone who has a Utility Scout on any action , along the lines of “The Poor Mans Scout Rifle”.

I have owned Mauser 98’s since 1985 and a couple of years back had one modified in line with Ashley Emersons blue print. It is 7.62/.308 Winchester and now has an 18” barrel, Timney Field trigger and a Ramline stock with an Uncle Mike‘s butt sleeve. I have fitted a third sling point, Uncle Mikes QD swivels and an English made Ching sling. The sights are XS ghost ring and forward scope mount with a Burris 2.75 Scout scope in low mount QD rings.

The costs came to about £550 plus the scope which was £125. The original barrelled action set me back a huge £50 from a friend. Truthfully I could have paid a couple of hundred more and had a Steyr Scout, but building my own held more appeal and my previous experience with a Steyr SSG was mixed.

I have only shot it on the range so far, but hope to hunt with it someday. I am getting 3 shot, 2-2 ½ inch groups at 100 yards with British Radway Green Surplus ammunition. (That’s the stuff that I have heard Americans refer to as Brit S**t) French Gevelot brings it down to around 1 ½ inches on a very good day , if I do my part and don’t let the rifle down.

I have been shooting for 26 years but consider my self an enthusiast rather than an expert. I would be very interested in hearing from any fellow travellers on the Utility Scout route on any tips at all. Handling , shooting at ranges greater than 200 - 300 yards, hand loading etc, better components on my next project as I plan to build a second one. Blunt honesty always appreciated.
 
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UltimaThule

New member
I see you joined today. Welcome to The Firing Line!

I don't own one and can't really comment on the scout thing, but your rifle sounds very much like what I would choose myself if I were to build one. I'll drop in on this thread again to see what those who actually know what they're talking about have to say...

Oh, one thing. If I ever build such a rifle, I would want a suppressor on it. I believe that's legal in your country too? Although a suppressor would make it difficult to put aperture sights on it, and I love aperture sights. Dang, why is life so complicated? :)
 
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SR420

New member
Scout concept

I would be very interested in hearing from any fellow travellers on the Utility Scout route on any tips at all. Handling , shooting at ranges greater than 200 - 300 yards, hand loading etc, better components on my next project as I plan to build a second one. Blunt honesty always appreciated.
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I really like Jeff Coopers Scout rifle concept and I have built a rifle that
meets most and defiantly exceeds some of the original concept criteria.

I call it my Tactical Scout rifle.

PHOTO LINK

Length: 35/40 inches.
Caliber: 7.62 x 51 mm NATO.
Accuracy: <1.00 MOA at 200 yards.
Trigger: 4 1/2 lb. two-stage military match.
Stock: High strength aircraft grade aluminum.
Barrel: 18 inch medium weight CH 4 groove 1:10. NEW
Weight: 12 lbs. with scope, bipod and sling installed.
Sighting system: 2.5 x 28mm IER with reserve military iron sights.
Accessories: Detachable forward grip and bipod. EOTech holographic sight.
Action: Gas operated, air cooled, semi-automatic, magazine and stripper clip fed.

The Leupold scout scope is awesome and snap shots out
to three and four hundred yards are very quick and easy.

I have only shot Port ammo from this rifle.

NOTE: I am working on a second rifle that will be a few pounds lighter.
 
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Dave R

New member
I have a forward-mount scope on a rifle, but I would hesitate to call it a scout rifle. I basically put a forward mount scope on an otherwise stock Swiss K-31. So it is over-length and over-weight to be a scout rifle.

However, it has made me a fan of the forward-mount scope. Very fast target acquisition. Between that and the straight-pull K-31 action, I can sometimes break 6 (stationary) clay pigeons at 100 yards in under 10 seconds. Pretty good for an old guy. Groups at 100 yards and 200 yards seem equal to those from a higher-powered, traditional mount scope. As long as the target is visible.
 
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AK103K

New member
I have a Savage Scout. I added the third swivel point and a Ching sling. I'm using a Leupold Scout scope on low QD rings. At 100 yards I get 2" groups or so with surplus GI ammo and at best, just under an inch using my reloads(165gr Nosler BT's over 4064). The Savage's B-Square scope mount is a little cheesy, but it works. It would be nice if they would have added a stripper cut in the receiver, as the forward mounted scope makes feeding it this way a big plus. Using the Mauser action is the way to go here. While not really a Scout type rifle, I also have a Springfield SOCOM with a Burris Scout scope on ARMS lever rings. The Burris is OK, but I like the Leupold better. Both could be a tad lighter in power and better yet, variable, like a 1x4 or 1.5x5 and while we're at it, lets throw in a lighted dot at the cross hair.(hey, i can dream, cant I :) ) The SOCOM while a little more compact than the standard M1A, is still a heavy gun and really doesnt fit the Scout criteria, if it really matters. The Scout scope does work well on it, but I like my Aimpoint better. I'm going to have to try to fit a Ching type sling to it at some point. Just havent got around to it yet. Since I got my Savage I'm sold on these type slings and have made a number of my own for my other rifles using my Galco as the pattern. They are cheap and easy to make and while the Galco is a real nice sling, it sure beats paying $50 a pop.
 
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SR420

New member
It don't matter to me ...

The SOCOM while a little more compact than the standard M1A, is still a heavy gun and really doesnt fit the Scout criteria, if it really matters.
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How refreshing :)

It's a concept - run with what you have and call it what you like.
 
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AK103K

New member
It's a concept - run with what you have and call it what you like.
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Hey, whatever floats your boat....but the difference between the Savage and the SOCOM is pretty big, and a SOCOM in a Sage is about twice the weight and bulk. For something light and handy, the later isnt, but if you dont mind humpin it, hey, that dont befront me. :) I do find the Savage is more natural to shoulder and shoot with, especially for snap shots, as the scope is lower and the cheek weld more along the lines of the iron sights. The SOCOM, even though the forward mount is lower than the rear mounted M1A scope mounts, is still a little to high, and its not as natural to shoot with. I find the Aimpoint is better than the scope and the iron sights are still the most natural to shoot with.
 
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PSE

Moderator
the best one iv had was built off a remington 600. the worst was that lug o steel springfield. the steyr is nice though iv only owned the 223 cub scout.
 
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Scribe

New member
Oh, one thing. If I ever build such a rifle, I would want a suppressor on it. I believe that's legal in your country too? Although a suppressor would make it difficult to put aperture sights on it, and I love aperture sights. Dang, why is life so complicated?

Ultimathule, Thank you for your welcome!

Suppresors are legal in this country, though I believe they have have to be registered almost as a separate firearm. I don't if it is possible to get them off set to clear the aperture sights.
 
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Magnum88C

New member
First of all I think Col Cooper's scout concept is too narrowly defined. I don't have a problem if a rifle is a bit over a meter long, it doesn't have to be 6 pounds, etc. IMO a "scout" is any handy rifle that you wouldn't mind carrying all day, and can be useful from short to medium range quickly. Kind of the rifle version of John Taffin's "packin' pistol".

Only one I "scouted up" was purpose built as a utility (i.e. low-budget) scout is a Mosin M44. All I did was take the bayonet off (left the lug on) since hunting with a bayonet is not legal here, and replced the rear sight with a scope base and put on a 2.5x Leupold IER.

I originally hated "scout scopes", upon taking the advice of a friend, I found out why and fixed the problem. Problem was too high a power. The ones I'd seen were 4x or more, and that's just too much magnification differential between scanning terrain looking through the scope for my eyes.

I also prefer military bolt actions as they can still be loaded with strippers with the forward mounted scope.


FWIW, the guys with M1A SOCOMS or even 16" FAL carbines have perfectly good, serviceable scout rifles. Remember it's about what's handy for YOU to carry, not anyone else.
 
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LAK

Moderator
First of all I think Col Cooper's scout concept is too narrowly defined
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Then why doesn't someone else create a different criteria of their own, and call it something else? :D

IMO a "scout" is any handy rifle that you wouldn't mind carrying all day, and can be useful from short to medium range quickly
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This is rather broad - certainly far too broad to be seen as a distinctive concept. Under such a definition "any good deer rifle will do". That is not what Col. Cooper had in mind; hence some stricter specifics.

Thus he defined the Scout concept and assigned it a name for the purpose of distinction.
 
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Magnum88C

New member
LAK, ya got a point, but I'm free to disagree. Like I said, it's HIS idea of a scout rifle, and as HE said, it's not a new concept (meaning something was called a "scout rifle" before he wrote about it, so he, by his own admission doesn't own the title).

So, since HE took the title from elsewhere, so can I. So, my definition is ANY DARN RIFLE THAT DOES THE JOB FOR YOU. :cool:
 
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PSE

Moderator
i once mounted a leupold scout scope on a #1 ruger mannlicher stocked 7X57 as far forward as i could get it in the rings. wasnt a "scout" but was GD fast to the shot.
 
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SR420

New member
Kinda, Sorta, Almost Scout Concept

Jeff Cooper's Scout Rifle Concept

An optimized general-purpose rifle concept by Jeff Cooper.

Weight-sighted and slung:
3 kilograms (6.6 lb). This has been set as the ideal weight
but the maximum has been stated as being 3.5 kg (7.7 pounds ).

Length:
1 meter (39 inches)

Barrel length:
.48 meter (19 inches)

Sighting system:
Forward and low mounted (ahead of the action opening) long eye relief telescope of between 2x and 3x.
Reserve iron sights desirable but not necessary.

Action:
Magazine fed bolt action. Detachable box magazine and/or stripper clip charging is desirable but not necessary.

Sling:
Fast loop-up type, i.e. Ching or CW style.

Caliber:
Nominally .308 Winchester (7.62 x 51 mm) or 7 mm - 08 Winchester (7 x 51 mm),
with .243 Winchester (6 x 51 mm) being considered for frail individuals or where "military" calibers are proscribed.

Built-in bipod:
Desirable but not mandatory.

Accuracy:
Should be capable of shooting into 2 minutes of angle or less at 200 yards/meters (3 shot groups).


Like I said "Coopers concept is an open-ended list of suggestions and recommendations."
 
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LAK

Moderator
Magnum88C
LAK, ya got a point, but I'm free to disagree. Like I said, it's HIS idea of a scout rifle, and as HE said, it's not a new concept (meaning something was called a "scout rifle" before he wrote about it, so he, by his own admission doesn't own the title).
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He makes no claim to ownership, but I do not think it is unreasonable to attribute his term and definition exclusively with each other. I do not think the term "Scout rifle" was ever used by anyone but Col. Cooper; all he has said is that several (particular) rifles during the 19th into the 20th century could be seen as predecessors to the general purpose "Scout" concept.

His work on the subject has been rather unique - not a single work along his lines prior to him going to press. Had he not gone through the trouble, would anyone else have done so? I think not. But all of a sudden, since his personal prototypes, writings - and now the Steyr Scout - alot of folk are suddenly redefining and/or making "Scouts". ;)
So, since HE took the title from elsewhere, so can I. So, my definition is ANY DARN RIFLE THAT DOES THE JOB FOR YOU.
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I own one of the Scout's "ancestors" - and it does "do the job for me". But it is not, and I do not call it, a "Scout".
 
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Magnum88C

New member
No problem, man, you're entitled to your opinion, just like the rest of us.
Perhaps we should refer to his idea as the "Cooper Scout"? Since I've noticed that not one of the production scouts actually meets all of his criteria, so I guess Steyr and Savage really shouldn't have called them "scouts"? 'Course calling them "Sorta Scout" or "Almost Scout" might have been marketing disasters. . .
 
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