Using My FL Sizing Die Minus Expander?

FiveInADime

New member
Can I use my Lee FL sizing dies without the expander/deprimer to bump the shoulder back after my rounds get tough to chamber from neck-only sizing with the Lee Collet NS dies? Does the expander have to be in place for some other reason? I would obviously neck size with the LCNSD after.
 

WWWJD

New member
You can try it, but it won't likely work. By the time you get to the point of shoulder set back, you will have already mostly FL sized the case. Without buying another die, you can go ahead and FL size the case / deprime, then follow up with your neck sizing die for the obvious reasons.

You can later if you want, get a body die and compare loads between the body die / neck die combo, vs the FL die / neck die combo.

Neck vs. FL sizing... I think you'll hear arguments for both sides of the fence.
 

jepp2

New member
Does the expander have to be in place for some other reason?

The expander is there to expand the "Undersized" neck to the proper diameter. You will find it is difficult to force the mandrel into the neck that has been sized but not expanded.

The die you want to use would be a body die that Redding makes. It only sizes the case body and bumps the shoulder. It does nothing with the neck.
 

mrawesome22

New member
The mandrel won't fit in the neck if you fl size first.

You need a redding body die that doesn't touch the neck whatsoever.

sudo passwd root
 

FiveInADime

New member
Thanks guys, Looks like I need to get some body dies then. For now I will just continue to partial FL size every 3-4 firings.

You can later if you want, get a body die and compare loads between the body die / neck die combo, vs the FL die / neck die combo.

Neck vs. FL sizing... I think you'll hear arguments for both sides of the fence.

With my rifle and reloading equipment my neck sized cases yield demonstrably better accuracy. Haven't tried real expensive FL Sizer dies yet, though.

Sent From My Galaxy S 4g Using Tapatalk
 
Last edited:

1stmar

New member
The order is wrong, deprime and neck size with the lee die first, then push the should back with the fl die. It's dragging the case across expander that causes runout. I have done it this way and my runout was always less the .003 and 95% of the cases were .001 or less.
 

FiveInADime

New member
The order is wrong, deprime and neck size with the lee die first, then push the should back with the fl die. It's dragging the case across expander that causes runout. I have done it this way and my runout was always less the .003 and 95% of the cases were .001 or less.

I don't understand. You do this with or without the expander in place? If you FL size after you neck size the FL Sizer will undo what you did with the neck die by squishing it down and expanding it again?

Sent From My Galaxy S 4g Using Tapatalk
 

1stmar

New member
Neck size with the lee collet, then push the shoulder back in a fl sizing die w/o the expander plug. Depending on how much you push the shoulder back, you may in effect neck size again with the fl sizing die. It depends on the tolerances of the fl sizing die compared to the mandrel in the lee die. I have also taken cases run through a fl sizing die w/o the expander plug in it and run them through the lee die. It's tight but you can do it, the mandrel is tapered.
 

Bart B.

New member
For what it's worth, folks winning rifle matches and setting records never ever neck size followed by body dies and operations. If one wants their sized case necks to be well centered on the case shoulders, the fired case neck has to be sized and positioned in a full length sizing die that holds the case body and shoulder firmly in place when that happens. They use bushings in that die whose diameters are 1 or 2 thousandths smaller than a loaded round's neck diameter.

Too many folks have measured case neck centering on shoulders with all sorts of dies and processes; it's best when done these days with a full length bushing die made by RCBS or Redding. Custom ones are also available.

If you know how bottleneck cases headspacing on their shoulders fit the chamber up front when the round fires, you'll use a full bushing die to make accurate ammo. Just deprime fired cases and clean them before lubing and sizing them. Set the die to move fired case shoulders back no more than a couple thousandths and that's all. Benchresters have been moving to this way of sizing fired cases more and more these days.

You can also lap the neck out in your current full length sizing die to the above dimensions for great accuracy. Some folks have been doing that since the 1960's with excellent results.
 
Last edited:

impalacustom

New member
You can remove the stem from your die and you will have a die body, but it will shrink your neck at the same time as it pushes your shoulder back.

As Bart B says, the only real way of doing it is to do it in a FL bushing die, this will push the shoulder back and size the neck properly to whatever size you choose, all in one step. Hornady also makes them.
 

FiveInADime

New member
For what it's worth, folks winning rifle matches and setting records never ever neck size followed by body dies and operations. If one wants their sized case necks to be well centered on the case shoulders, the fired case neck has to be sized and positioned in a full length sizing die that holds the case body and shoulder firmly in place when that happens. They use bushings in that die whose diameters are 1 or 2 thousandths smaller than a loaded round's neck diameter.

Too many folks have measured case neck centering on shoulders with all sorts of dies and processes; it's best when done these days with a full length bushing die made by RCBS or Redding. Custom ones are also available.

If you know how bottleneck cases headspacing on their shoulders fit the chamber up front when the round fires, you'll use a full bushing die to make accurate ammo. Just deprime fired cases and clean them before lubing and sizing them. Set the die to move fired case shoulders back no more than a couple thousandths and that's all. Benchresters have been moving to this way of sizing fired cases more and more these days.

You can also lap the neck out in your current full length sizing die to the above dimensions for great accuracy. Some folks have been doing that since the 1960's with excellent results.

The key here is I don't have benchrest rifles with match Chambers. I have sporting rifles with sloppy Chambers. I don't think the increase in accuracy from using the Lee Collet die is mainly because of concentricity. I think it's just that the brass fits the chamber better. I lose accuracy when I have to bump the shoulder back (I adjust the FL die by trial and error just until it barely gets back to easy to chamber cases). It's not a subtle difference at 200 yards and beyond. The neck sized cases hold 1.5-2" groups at 200 yards and they're more like 3" when I have to use the FL die.

Lapping the neck out of the FL sizing die sounds promising. How exactly would I go about that? I would want to take the neck region out just a thousandth or two?

Sent From My Galaxy S 4g Using Tapatalk
 

Bart B.

New member
FiveInADime, those folks I mentioned are not using benchrest style tight neck chambers; they hold rifles to their shoulders in 3 positions shooting high power matches which are different than benchrest matches where rifles are fired in free recoil untouched by humans except for a light finger touch on their 2-ounce triggers. Chambers in the most accurate ones are SAAMI spec or close enough to not make a difference; some tested in free recoil have shot groups smaller than benchrest records. Sierra Bullets uses the same loose-neck chambers and fired cases so sized testing their bullets for accuracy getting sub 1/4th MOA at 200 yards with their best match bullets. They also used factory sporting rifles with sloppy factory chambers to develop accurate loads for their reloading manuals. Sierra's first ballistic tech had a saying "Sized rifle cases have to fit the chamber like a **** in a punch bowl." In other words, tight necks ain't best for accuracy; a loose fit's best. Even commercial .308 Win. match ammo shot under 4 inches at 600 yards in sloppy, mil spec chambers in 7.62 NATO service rifles when they were popular; about 1/4 inch at 100 yards which ain't too shabby for an M1 or M14.

You may not have your full length sizing die down far enough in the press. If you set your full length sizing die to move the fired case shoulder back only 2 or 3 thousandths, the bolt will close easily. If there's any binding when the bolt closes, it won't be at the same position in the receiver for every shot; that's a detriment to accuracy. Using a case headspace guage such as the RCBS Precision Mic will enable you to see exactly how much you're setting fired case shoulders back. Both too much and too little hurts accuracy; 2 thousandths is about right for most applications.

I lapped out several dies as follows. Strip the die then chuck it in a lathe headstock bottom out. Check it for runout on the inside as you may have to shim it at one or two headstock jaws a thousandth or so. Split the end of a wood dowel then wrap 400 grit emery paper on it for a tight fit in the die's neck. Spin the die at a couple hundered rpm, wet the emery paper then run the "lap" in and out a few times. Use a hole micrometer to check the neck diameter and repeat until it's the size you want.

People measuring how well case necks are centered on case shoulders after sizing learned that full length sizing dies center the neck better on the case shoulder. All bottleneck cases headspacing on their shoulder center perfectly up front in the chamber when fired. Doesn't matter if the case body and case neck are several thousandths smaller than the chamber at those places. The case shoulder angle matches the chamber shoulder's angle. When the firing pin drives the case hard into the shoulder, it centers perfectly; therefore so does the neck holding the bullet. The bullet in .243 Win. case will center perfectly in a .308 Win. chamber neck when its fired. And as there's no such thing as a perfectly round case or chamber, when neck only sized case bodies get too big, they start interfering with the chamber body.

Besides, full length sizing fired cases straightens out quite a bit those that are banana shaped from stretching back more on one side than the other when fired because wall thickness on one side's thinner than the other. And the back end of all cases are pressed against the chamber wall by the extractor pushing sideways on the groove in the case head; they ain't centered at all at their hind end.
 
Last edited:

FiveInADime

New member
FiveInADime, those folks I mentioned are not using benchrest style tight neck chambers; they hold rifles to their shoulders in 3 positions shooting high power matches which are different than benchrest matches where rifles are fired in free recoil untouched by humans except for a light finger touch on their 2-ounce triggers. Chambers in the most accurate ones are SAAMI spec or close enough to not make a difference; some tested in free recoil have shot groups smaller than benchrest records. Sierra Bullets uses the same loose-neck chambers and fired cases so sized testing their bullets for accuracy getting sub 1/4th MOA at 200 yards with their best match bullets. They also used factory sporting rifles with sloppy factory chambers to develop accurate loads for their reloading manuals. Sierra's first ballistic tech had a saying "Sized rifle cases have to fit the chamber like a **** in a punch bowl." In other words, tight necks ain't best for accuracy; a loose fit's best. Even commercial .308 Win. match ammo shot under 4 inches at 600 yards in sloppy, mil spec chambers in 7.62 NATO service rifles when they were popular; about 1/4 inch at 100 yards which ain't too shabby for an M1 or M14.

You may not have your full length sizing die down far enough in the press. If you set your full length sizing die to move the fired case shoulder back only 2 or 3 thousandths, the bolt will close easily. If there's any binding when the bolt closes, it won't be at the same position in the receiver for every shot; that's a detriment to accuracy. Using a case headspace guage such as the RCBS Precision Mic will enable you to see exactly how much you're setting fired case shoulders back. Both too much and too little hurts accuracy; 2 thousandths is about right for most applications.

I lapped out several dies as follows. Strip the die then chuck it in a lathe headstock bottom out. Check it for runout on the inside as you may have to shim it at one or two headstock jaws a thousandth or so. Split the end of a wood dowel then wrap 400 grit emery paper on it for a tight fit in the die's neck. Spin the die at a couple hundered rpm, wet the emery paper then run the "lap" in and out a few times. Use a hole micrometer to check the neck diameter and repeat until it's the size you want.

People measuring how well case necks are centered on case shoulders after sizing learned that full length sizing dies center the neck better on the case shoulder. All bottleneck cases headspacing on their shoulder center perfectly up front in the chamber when fired. Doesn't matter if the case body and case neck are several thousandths smaller than the chamber at those places. The case shoulder angle matches the chamber shoulder's angle. When the firing pin drives the case hard into the shoulder, it centers perfectly; therefore so does the neck holding the bullet. The bullet in .243 Win. case will center perfectly in a .308 Win. chamber neck when its fired. And as there's no such thing as a perfectly round case or chamber, when neck only sized case bodies get too big, they start interfering with the chamber body.

Besides, full length sizing fired cases straightens out quite a bit those that are banana shaped from stretching back more on one side than the other when fired because wall thickness on one side's thinner than the other. And the back end of all cases are pressed against the chamber wall by the extractor pushing sideways on the groove in the case head; they ain't centered at all at their hind end.

I know you are much more advanced in this than I am, but I have a hard time believing some of what you're saying based on my results so far. My best accuracy has been with once fired cases that are neck sized.

I might not know exactly how far I am setting the shoulder back when I FL resize but once I have it set it remains the same, I don't change the settings from case to case. I screw my FL die in to touch the shell holder. I then size the case there, try it (just for piece of mind), it is still tough to chamber so I barely turn the die in and try again until it Chambers easily. I can't be pushing it back more than a thousandth or two. I turn the die in ~1/32th of a turn each time.

Later on down the line as I collect more tools and instruments I will change methods, surely. Right now I am happy with the accuracy I get with the neck-sized cases but I would just like to bridge the gap.

Sent From My Galaxy S 4g Using Tapatalk
 

Bart B.

New member
FiveInADime sez:
I might not know exactly how far I am setting the shoulder back when I FL resize but once I have it set it remains the same, I don't change the settings from case to case. I screw my FL die in to touch the shell holder. I then size the case there, try it (just for piece of mind), it is still tough to chamber so I barely turn the die in and try again until it Chambers easily. I can't be pushing it back more than a thousandth or two. I turn the die in ~1/32th of a turn each time.
1/32nd of a turn's a good thing to do; most folks change die positions with much greater amounts. That'll change the die height a bit over .002".

Unless you have a gauge to measure your sized cases, it's hard to tell how much they're set back as well as what the spread is. Depending on how one lubes their cleaned cases, the distance from case head to shoulder reference may well have a .004" spread across a batch of them. And that much spread may well have the longest ones causing the bolt to bind a bit when the round's chambered.

I know all too well why folks have a hard time believing what I mentioned before regarding case sizing and fit to the chamber. When I was a staunch disbeliever of such things years ago and neck only sized my fired cases, I went on a tour of Sierra Bullets' plant in California. Their ballistic tech I shot matches with gave me a tour behind the scenes and showed me his rack of full length sizing dies and gauges he used to size cases used to test their bullets for accuracy. Then he took ten 30 caliber 168-gr. match bullets as they came out of the pointing machine, seated them in full length sized .308 Win. cases with powder metered into them direct from a measure (not weighed) then shot 'em into a .15 MOA group in their 100 yard test range. He then showed me how to lap out my dies so's not to need the expander ball. My subsequent test groups shrunk 50% and match scores jumped up quite a bit.

I know you are much more advanced in this than I am, but I have a hard time believing some of what you're saying based on my results so far. My best accuracy has been with once fired cases that are neck sized.
For heaven's sake, don't reload with the tools and processes you're not comfortable with.
 
Last edited:

FiveInADime

New member
I may have not phrased my last response as well as I should have. I didn't mean to say that I disagreed with your findings or proven methods. Just that with my current equipment and testing neck-sizing gives me the best results. I am on the fence about finding a machinist to lap the necks on my sizing dies or maybe just buy FL bushing dies down the road and live with my results for now. With a bushing die I assume neck-turning will be required to get consistent neck-tension?

Sent From My Galaxy S 4g Using Tapatalk
 

Bart B.

New member
FiveInADime, you won't have to turn your case necks if they're no more that .001" or so spread in wall thickness. I'd get two bushings; one .001" and the other .002" smaller than the smallest neck diameter you have on your loaded rounds.

And Redding's competition shell holders are great, too. Use the one that lets your die bottom bounce off of it as the fired case is full length sized with the shoulder set back where you want it. This will keep the spread across case headspace down to a minumum amount; helps accuracy, too. If you could use a feeler gauge to measure the gap between a standard shell holder and the bottom of your die as the shoulder's set back properly, get just the shell holder that's .125" plus you feeler gauge thickness; if a .005" feeler's used, get a shell holder that's .130" high.

http://www.redding-reloading.com/in...ew=article&id=35:competition-shellholder-sets
 
Top