User friendly .357 ammo for Ti/Sc Revolvers?

[DennisE]

I just bought a S&W 386PD. It is a 17.5 oz scandium frame/titanium cyllinder revolver with a 2.5" barrel and a hi-viz front sight. I changed the grip and had a trigger job done and its a great DA shooter at 50'. .38 Special and .38+P are both very accurate, easy to shoot in DA and lots of fun. The gun is great for CCW because its so light.

Full house .357 Magnum rounds are accurate but a real bear and for me at least have really slow shot-to-shot recovery times. What is the best 'user friendly' personal defense .357 ammo for these kind of light weight revolvers? Thanks, Dennis

 

[CarbineCaleb]

I'd check out the new Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel .357 round - it's a 135 gr bullet, in a reduced recoil load, but still a step ahead of .38+P

 

[NorWestr]

Re the 357 magnum SB 135gr Gold Dot,Speer has some interesting facts in their reloading data. Its a pdf file with the "copy" feature disabled but more or less says that " the 30-40% increase in velocity attained with the 357 magnum,puts this bullet out of its optimum expansion range and it'll most likely fragment while the base stays intact for penetration." While thats not always a bad thing they "don't recommend it for any application requiring deep penetration and optimal weight retention". The bullets configured for optimum expansion at a (stubby) muzzle velocity of 860 fps and thats what the 38+P factory rd delivers (according to their ballisics).I'm working up my own loads with this bullet to their 38+P specs for my Model 60. I'd try the GDSB 38+Ps.
Speer Bullets

 

[DennisE]

I shot the Speer SB 135 gr .38+Ps at the range today. They are very accurate and easy to control, so I'm carrying them now in my 386PD. I'm still wondering though if any of the commercial .357 defense loads are light enough in recoil for this application. Thanks, Dennis

 

[CarbineCaleb]

NorWestr

Hm! That sounds odd! I found what you described alright... Very surprising, because Speer is well known for taking care, and for optimizing each bullet's design parameters to the particular load used in a single cartridge.

Since they say they can't recommend running it at .357 speeds, I just would be very surprised if they are introducing a product they can't recommend. I don't think it'd be a big deal for them to adjust cavity smaller, notches less aggressive for milder expansion when used in the .357 SB.

It may be that they are just describing what will happen if a reloader takes their 135gr bullet used in the .38Special+P cartridge and load that up to .357 speeds; but that they have developed a differently optimized bullet for the .357 Short Barrel (which is at least one year newer - I still can't find it yet in brick or online stores). The reloading "Lab Notes" are from 2004, and the .357 SB is a 2005 product.

 

[NorWestr]

Carbine Caleb
I thought it was kind of strange myself. I was going to give them a call about this yesterday but their tech lines aren't open on Friday.. I'll try to give them a call Monday and post what they have to say. Its possible they'v redesigned the bullet for 357 velocities but I couldn't read that into their comments on the new ammo.

 

[DennisE]

I agree especially in light of the fact that Speer says:

2005 New Products
New Products
Ammunition
Bullets
Accessories
Gold Dot® SB Ammunition Line for Short-Barrel Handguns

The proliferation of short-barrel, compact firearms for concealed carry has placed new demands on today’s ammunition. Bullets must expand at lower velocities yet have adequate penetration. With new firearms built of high-tech lightweight materials like scandium and titanium, conventional Magnum ammunition produces unpleasant levels of recoil.
To meet this new challenge, Speer introduces Gold Dot SB, a special class of cartridges that is perfect for compact firearms. We started in 2004 with the superb 38 Special +P 135-grain HP load that has been hailed as the best load for 38 “snubbies.” We do this with special bullet designs that allow proper expansion at reduced velocities without sacrificing tactical penetration. Cartridges like the 357 and 44 Magnum feature reduced recoil allowing better control.
Like all Gold Dot ammo, the new Gold Dot SB features bullets with true, bonded-core construction for high retained weights and excellent penetration . We increase the surface area of the cavity, and mate velocity to the job at hand.

FEATURES & BENEFITS
• True bonded-core bullets
— High retained weights to increase penetration when fired from short barrels
• Patented* two-stage cavity formation with enhanced surface area
— Allows excellent design control to ensure proper performance in short-barrel firearms
• Reduced recoil in Magnum cartridges
— Permits much better control during rapid fire
• Nickel-plated cartridge cases
— Resists environmental effects and aids in extraction
• World-famous CCI® primers
— Non-corrosive and non-mercuric
— Reliable ignition under “real-world” conditions


PART NO. DESCRIPTION
23917 Gold Dot SB 357 Magnum 135 gr GDHP - 20 per box; 500 per case
23611 Gold Dot SB 9mm +P 124 gr GDHP - 20 per box; 500 per case
23974 Gold Dot SB 40 S&W 180 gr GDHP - 20 per box; 500 per case
23971 Gold Dot SB 44 Magnum 200 gr GDHP - 20 per box; 500 per case
23975 Gold Dot SB 45 Auto 230 gr GDHP - 20 per box; 500 per case

Dennis

 

[Laz]

NorWestr, you said, "Re the 357 magnum SB 135gr Gold Dot,Speer has some interesting facts in their reloading data. Its a pdf file with the "copy" feature disabled but more or less says that " the 30-40% increase in velocity attained with the 357 magnum,puts this bullet out of its optimum expansion range and it'll most likely fragment while the base stays intact for penetration." I just checked your link and, sure enough, that's what they say. However, isn't that for reloading purposes? The forthcoming .357 SB factory load is advertised at 1000fps from a 2 inch barrel. That's about a 16% increase in velocity over the advertised 860fps from a 2 inch for the .38. That might not be enough to create the negative side effects they mention. Interesting information, though. Food for thought. I love the .38 version but have been hoping the .357 would give about 1000 fps from an SP101 and be the bee's knees.

 

[DennisE]

Laz: Hi! 1000 f/s with +/- 300 ft/lbs and a 135 gr bullet sounds like a great carry load for my 386! Dennis

 

[Laz]

DennisE - It sure does. If it ever shows up on the shelves...

 

[mirage]

You could try

Winchester makes a "personal protection" 110gr JHP.
It feels like a 38spl out of my heavy vaquero, @ 1295fps.

 

[NorWestr]

Laz,thats real possible,I didn't notice the 2004 date on the reloading data. What got me wondering was that though they give you load data to approximate the 135GDSB .357 factory load,the main body of the text still says that they don't recommend it where max penetration and weight retention is desirable. They must have added the reduced load data later and as an oversight didn't change the text above. I'll call them anyway out of curiosity.

 

[Laz]

NorWestr - It's an interesting situation. Please let us know what they say.

 

[HighVelocity]

I own a 386PD and I have tried quite a few different rounds in it. If you really want to carry magnums in it I recommend the Remington 125gr Golden Sabres. At the range they have been very consistant and very accurate in the 386. Also, they come 25 to a box, not 20 like everyone elses specialty ammo.
Unless you like pain stay away from any 357mag loads using over 140gr bullet for the Scandium Smith. Trust me on this one.

 

[23Skidoo]

What was wrong with the 158gr LHP 38Spc +P load again??

 

[DennisE]

NorWestr: Hi! I'm curious to hear what Speer told you. Thanks, Dennis

 

[Nanuk]

I use 145 GRN STHP in my 360 PD. They are not fun to shoot. Smith recomends very strongly against anything below 120 grains. It has to do with erosion of the titanium cylinder.

 

[CraigJS]

Part number for the 38+P 135g Gold Dots is 23921. If your very worried about recoil in a very light pistol then I wouldn't shoot .357s in it... Those 135 GDs placed properly (as ANY round should be) at close self defence distances will certainly ruin anyones day... A poor placement by almost any round is a poor defender! Know your gun, know your abilities, know how to hit where you want to hit. In other words practice alot and always use your head. Getting away from any deadly force situation is always (if possible) the best defence....
CraigJS

 

[DennisE]

Craig: Hi! I agree with everyting you said. Nonetheless I am a range officer and am on the range generally shooting 4 hours/week, rain, shine or snow. I've shot everything out there in pistol/revolver calibers from .17 up through S&W .500 Magnums. I just recently acquired the S&W 386PD and am interested in finding the optimal .357 Magnum round to shoot in it to get improved power over the .38+Ps but with the best available shot-to-shot recovery times. Anyway that's why I started this thread. Any experience/suggestions are appreciated. Thanks, Dennis

 

[NMGlocker]

BEWARE the 145gr. .357mag Silvertips in the Sc J frames.
The Silvertips show excessive bullet creep during recoil, the OAL increases to the point where they could lock up the cylinder. To test, shoot 4 rounds then measure the 5th for excessive bullet creep.
Bullet creep is the reason I have started using the Speer 135gr. SB Gold-Dot .38spl.