Used Brass Liability
- Thread starter akinswi
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Marco Califo
New member
No. It is always "as is", needs inspection and culling, and end user performed prep, seller did not do.
I would specifically disclaim any liability, for actions outside your control (buyer processing). I would not ever sell brass calling it "fully prepped and ready to load" (which does not really exist, although new Starline brass comes close).
Midway sells once fired, with no disclaimer:
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1021189441?pid=763721
Midway and Midsouth both carry "processed" brass". I did not see any disclaimers, so they do not seem to be needed.
I would specifically disclaim any liability, for actions outside your control (buyer processing). I would not ever sell brass calling it "fully prepped and ready to load" (which does not really exist, although new Starline brass comes close).
Midway sells once fired, with no disclaimer:
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1021189441?pid=763721
Midway and Midsouth both carry "processed" brass". I did not see any disclaimers, so they do not seem to be needed.
Last edited:
Double Naught Spy
New member
Then there is the "as always, anybody can sue anyone for anything" aspect.
I have sold once fired brass several times and never gave it a second thought.
I have sold once fired brass several times and never gave it a second thought.
Most of us have sold used rifles and I do not know of anyone sued.
But as noted above, you never know
I don't reload ammo for anyone as you have indeed made significant changes. I was at the range when a gun shop employee testing a 300 WM (modern) had a blow up. A mass reloader has put in pistol powder to the tune of a full on 300 WM load.
The barrel went down range 20 feet, receiver peeled open, shrapnel flew (hit one guy in the cheek) and the scope took out 5 teeth in the shooters mouth.
I am pretty sure there was a settlement that went into the 100s of thousands let alone the medical bill. Guy is probably fixed for life but a cost.
But as noted above, you never know
I don't reload ammo for anyone as you have indeed made significant changes. I was at the range when a gun shop employee testing a 300 WM (modern) had a blow up. A mass reloader has put in pistol powder to the tune of a full on 300 WM load.
The barrel went down range 20 feet, receiver peeled open, shrapnel flew (hit one guy in the cheek) and the scope took out 5 teeth in the shooters mouth.
I am pretty sure there was a settlement that went into the 100s of thousands let alone the medical bill. Guy is probably fixed for life but a cost.
Several threads in the past have been by folks thinking to get into the ammo remanufacturing business, but who balked at the liability insurance premiums.
I have traded range brass with people before, but we both knew it was range brass and what that meant we had to do with it. If I were cleaning and selling it at a gun show or a flea market, l would put a label on saying "SOLD AS IS. No Warranty Express or Implied."
I have traded range brass with people before, but we both knew it was range brass and what that meant we had to do with it. If I were cleaning and selling it at a gun show or a flea market, l would put a label on saying "SOLD AS IS. No Warranty Express or Implied."
Not to beat it to death but ski lifts have that on the tickets and the ski resorts still get sued.
Frankly I don't think used brass has any liability but that is until someone sues and wins (or you have to defend yourself)
Maybe the good news is its close to impossible to trace what brass came from where.
I rarely shoot one else reloads (a couple of exceptions but not someone I don't know and even then its a risk, we all make mistakes)
As I understand the 300 WM blow up, the guy had pistol powder alongside rifle powder. Ungh. But then you are trying to make money and speed takes over and the famous road to that hot place.
As an aside, one of the killers for general aviation was the unlimited liability that aircraft mfgs had, 30 years latter they were still responsible. They got the law changed but before they did that also pretty well killed affordable general aviation (Cessna no longer makes the 150 type and the new made C-172 which dates back to the 50s is $400,000, a slow 4 person plane, phew. Now can you still sue Remington for the Model of 1917?
Frankly I don't think used brass has any liability but that is until someone sues and wins (or you have to defend yourself)
Maybe the good news is its close to impossible to trace what brass came from where.
I rarely shoot one else reloads (a couple of exceptions but not someone I don't know and even then its a risk, we all make mistakes)
As I understand the 300 WM blow up, the guy had pistol powder alongside rifle powder. Ungh. But then you are trying to make money and speed takes over and the famous road to that hot place.
As an aside, one of the killers for general aviation was the unlimited liability that aircraft mfgs had, 30 years latter they were still responsible. They got the law changed but before they did that also pretty well killed affordable general aviation (Cessna no longer makes the 150 type and the new made C-172 which dates back to the 50s is $400,000, a slow 4 person plane, phew. Now can you still sue Remington for the Model of 1917?
FrankenMauser
New member
Since Remington is dead, I am pretty sure the answer is 'no'.
So, if that logic tracks, it seems that the best way to avoid liability for anything is to make one's self dead after every sale.
So, if that logic tracks, it seems that the best way to avoid liability for anything is to make one's self dead after every sale.
Other than possibly taxes on any profit, I don't think the sell is liable for the actions of the buyer, or any third party involved.
There are some points to consider, and how much weight to give them...
First, in the US today it seems one can sue anyone for any reason. Since we seem to be past the days of lawyers not taking cases they know are not valid, or judges throwing out cases because they are, literally, stupid, nothing stops you from being sued by someone with the money to do so, and some kind of grievance, real or imagined, against you.
However, being sued for something doesn't mean there will be a judgement against you, and if you're not a "careless insensitive greedy deep pockets company" where jurors might rule against you simply to satisfy their personal sense of social justice, you're not a high profile target.
Now, lets look at the actual arguments possible for and against your liability...
Just as the injured party will claim you "knew or should have known" the brass was defective, and thereby intentionally put them at risk, and so are liable for their injury, so to are they open to the argument that THEY "knew or should have known" the brass was defective, and their failure to inspect and determine the actual condition before use would, I think, nullify their claim against the seller.
ALSO, working against their claim is the fact that they have only their word to stand on. How can they prove it was "bad brass" that YOU sold them??? I don't see how they can. Everything that was done or not done to that brass after they took physical possession of it was entirely beyond your control.
They did the brass prep, they loaded the brass, they put ammo that THEY manufactured into their gun, and fired it. The only evidence they have that you are at fault is their word against yours.
They might bring suit against you, but I don't see where it could go anywhere, and frequently false accusations result in the accuser being liable for all costs.
Every manual I've ever seen instructing how to reload/handload has the basic step of inspecting the cases to be used, and someone else's failure to follow safety rules properly is generally not your concern. OR shouldn't be, as I see it.
Not in my world .
I have purchased "once-fired" brass from shooting range for years ... it's up to me to inspect every case and determine if it is reloadable or if it should be trashed .
In reloading ... You are responsible for every decision you make and action you perform ... there is NO holding someone else liable for your actions
I'm sure in this lawsuit happy society we live in ... some folks don't want me on a jury ...
I believe in personal responsibility and common sense ...Momma didn't raise no fool .
Gary
I have purchased "once-fired" brass from shooting range for years ... it's up to me to inspect every case and determine if it is reloadable or if it should be trashed .
In reloading ... You are responsible for every decision you make and action you perform ... there is NO holding someone else liable for your actions
I'm sure in this lawsuit happy society we live in ... some folks don't want me on a jury ...
I believe in personal responsibility and common sense ...Momma didn't raise no fool .
Gary
I often sit on the side of the plaintiffs or defendants in lawsuits, as an expert. What I can say, is, yes, anyone can sue anyone...but there also has to be an attorney willing to take the case, and a judge willing to hear it. Those thresholds are not an easy step in a lot of cases. Depending on the nature of the case, especially in some liability civil suits, there is also the premise that a "professional" or "Subject Matter Expert" has to sign an affidavit stating that the suit has validity. That is another hurdle.
Let's look at this from the perspective of "Reloading Manuals". Don't they almost all say to inspect your brass, start low and work up, check pressure, etc.? So too, in this, and other forums are warning, admonoitions, etc. from staff as to the use of reloading info on their site. So those hurdles puts the responsibility on the person who puts powder, primers and bullets in the case to make sure the case is suitable for the intended purpose. There is no indifference tolerated when it comes to hand-loading. One could make an argument that a handloader is a "sophisticated user" as opposed to a "common man" and that puts even greater responsibility on the handloader.
In cases where I have been asked to opine on handload issues, frankly, almost all never even got off the mat to become a lawsuit. In a few cases when they did, the case settled after I wrote a report. I won't go into details, because I can not recall if there was a protective order, but suffice it to say that my expert opinion is that the handloader is responsible for the ammunition they load and that includes the suitability of the components used, regardless of source. If you take that into another realm, I've said the same thing with cases that were damaged through inappropriate wet tumbling and resulted in case head failures.
Let's look at this from the perspective of "Reloading Manuals". Don't they almost all say to inspect your brass, start low and work up, check pressure, etc.? So too, in this, and other forums are warning, admonoitions, etc. from staff as to the use of reloading info on their site. So those hurdles puts the responsibility on the person who puts powder, primers and bullets in the case to make sure the case is suitable for the intended purpose. There is no indifference tolerated when it comes to hand-loading. One could make an argument that a handloader is a "sophisticated user" as opposed to a "common man" and that puts even greater responsibility on the handloader.
In cases where I have been asked to opine on handload issues, frankly, almost all never even got off the mat to become a lawsuit. In a few cases when they did, the case settled after I wrote a report. I won't go into details, because I can not recall if there was a protective order, but suffice it to say that my expert opinion is that the handloader is responsible for the ammunition they load and that includes the suitability of the components used, regardless of source. If you take that into another realm, I've said the same thing with cases that were damaged through inappropriate wet tumbling and resulted in case head failures.
Totally agree.
Thanks RoyceP for the support!
Looks like it's you , me and rclark ...
against the rest of the " it aint my fault " world !
Gary
MarkCo nailed it nicely IMO
The ultimate and sole responsibility lies with the guy that handloaded the round. It's been 5 years since I have loaded for rifle. I set up to load 30.06 a few weeks ago, traded in to some good RCBS dies, and checked my component inventory, still no Std. primers around, I picked up a box of Sierra 168 HPBT. I reached in to the back of my powder cabinet and pulled out an old can of IMR4895. Old but smelled fine I filled my uniflow about halfway and proceeded to throw charges to get a ballpark. Hmm, this neither looks right or feels right....ALL STOP! Hmm. Those powder grains should be long and tubular they are not that, also way too easy to throw charges lever should be notchy with rifle powder. I turned that old steel can around and found a tiny handwritten label stuck on the can with yellowing scotch tape....2400!
No harm no foul, pistol powder never entered a rifle case. My bride has another pound of fertilizer, and I have all my appendages, that is a win win.
I'll add to MarkCo's wisdom just a little, perhaps. Yes you could be sued, that not only takes an Atty. it also takes 5 K or so retainer to move forward. Unlikely those two hurdles would be overcome. No Atty. in their right mind would take this sort of thing on contingency.
The ultimate and sole responsibility lies with the guy that handloaded the round. It's been 5 years since I have loaded for rifle. I set up to load 30.06 a few weeks ago, traded in to some good RCBS dies, and checked my component inventory, still no Std. primers around, I picked up a box of Sierra 168 HPBT. I reached in to the back of my powder cabinet and pulled out an old can of IMR4895. Old but smelled fine I filled my uniflow about halfway and proceeded to throw charges to get a ballpark. Hmm, this neither looks right or feels right....ALL STOP! Hmm. Those powder grains should be long and tubular they are not that, also way too easy to throw charges lever should be notchy with rifle powder. I turned that old steel can around and found a tiny handwritten label stuck on the can with yellowing scotch tape....2400!
No harm no foul, pistol powder never entered a rifle case. My bride has another pound of fertilizer, and I have all my appendages, that is a win win.
I'll add to MarkCo's wisdom just a little, perhaps. Yes you could be sued, that not only takes an Atty. it also takes 5 K or so retainer to move forward. Unlikely those two hurdles would be overcome. No Atty. in their right mind would take this sort of thing on contingency.
There's also a component of gross negligence. If you had a known bad batch of brass and sold it instead of scrapped it and someone got hurt then I think there is solid grounds for a lawsuit. Now proving that is another matter.
Buying used stuff invokes "caveat emptor" and it's a tough sell to pin a failure on the individual used brass seller when there are so many other factors to consider like viability of powder, inspection, and the many other steps one must do to reload.
Buying used stuff invokes "caveat emptor" and it's a tough sell to pin a failure on the individual used brass seller when there are so many other factors to consider like viability of powder, inspection, and the many other steps one must do to reload.