Use of Force, #2

[Dennis]

Hey, Hard Ball,

I don't know that anyone has done this before. Let's start with your well-known statement and work backwards.


- "I'd rather be tried by twelve than carried by six."
- I'd rather be no-billed than tried.
- I'd rather be commended than charged.
- I'd rather chase him off than shoot him.
- I'd rather avoid the problem than be involved in one.

This doesn't look quite right. Any suggestions?


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Either you believe in the Second Amendment or you don't.
Stick it to 'em! RKBA!



[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited January 08, 2000).]

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Two things:

For those of you who contemplate using force but have no real experience in it, I suggest taking a FOF (force on force class) with various scenarios. You will quickly learn that it doesn't go the way you want very quickly. I've seen guys shoot the police, I've seen a defender draw on the BG and the muzzle was pointed at me. I've seen myself be overly aggressive when I shouldn't be. It's very eye opening.

Second - there is story in the latest Combat Handguns about a guy who honked at a dude
who went beserk and our hero almost got arrested for meancing.

Basically, hero gets cut off and honks. The nut then chases him all over the road and finally approaches the car. Our guy brandishes his Glock 30 and calls the cops. The nut claims he was the one threatened. It's worth the read.

Glenn

 

[Bob Locke]

Dennis,

Why doesn't your progression look right to you? It certainly reads just fine by me.

I believe that all of us who lurk and post on TFL would rather not have to shoot anyone, ever. I know that is true of me. I also know that if I have no other choice (and I mean NO other choice), then the shootin' iron will be out and the lead will be flying.

Maybe I am being too simplistic in my thinking. As I have never been in a situation where my life was actually threatened (though I was in a couple where that was on the verge of happening), I may not respond in the manner which I hope to. The only thing I can do, I believe, is to work through different scenarios in my mind and in "dry runs" if possible so that I am better prepared should I ever encounter a real-time situation. Training is VITAL, but it must be GOOD training that includes the laws where you live.

I believe that it was said before, but it bears repeating: Being a good shot is NOT enough. Knowing WHEN to shoot is a least as important, and maybe more so.

 

[Hard Ball]

If you ever have to use deadly force the most important thing is to tell the right story. You don't want to sound like a lawyer reading from a law book but your story should include the basic justification for the use of deadly orce in self defense.

In most places in the United States that is that the attacker's actions caused you to feel that you were in dnger of suffering death or great bodily harm.

 

[Coinneach]

Being a good shot is NOT enough. Knowing WHEN to shoot is a least as important, and maybe more so.

Very true, but there's something even more important than knowing when to shoot:

Knowing when to NOT shoot.

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"If your determination is fixed, I do not counsel you to despair. Few things are impossible to diligence and skill. Great works are performed not by strength, but perseverance."
-- Samuel Johnson

 

[George Hill]

Those are some good posts... make you think.
As The Gambler says, "You got know when to hold them, know when to fold them..."
Shoot - Dont shoot drills were a very important in my police academy. I still remember them. Some were very challenging.

When it comes to Force on Force - I suggest you try a game of Paint Ball. It isnt firearms - but it can illustrate that your plan can very quickly go out the window. It can teach you about movement, cover, and lighting... and other things. Once you translate that into Real World - with Real Guns - you quickly realize that a shoot-out is that last thing you would want to get into.
But, You gotta prepare for the worst and hope for the best.
Massad Ayoob writes an awful lot about this stuff. Ayoob Files or something like that.
One thing that stands out clear - is that you dont volunteer any information with out a lawyer. "I want to cooperate and help you, officer, but I feel I should not make any statements with out my lawyer." That is sound advice.

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"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." - Sigmund Freud

 

[labgrade]

Even better than any "at the scene statement" ... a buddy (& CCW holder) has a card printed by his lawyer which states something along the lines of:

"Good day, Officer. My name is __________. If I am not under arrest I would like to leave now. If I am under arrest, I wish to cooporate fully but have been advised by my lawyer ____________ & phone # to contact him prior to any conversation with you. ... "

I didn't relay the info very well but, you get the drift. He keeps this card with his CCW permit. Sounds like a good idea.

Too, it's a great idea to have a lawyer buddy or one on retainer who you can call ANYTIME - day or night.

 

[Caeca Invidia Es]

Utah Code 76-2-405

(1) A person is justified in using force against another when and to the extent that he reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent or terminate the other's unlawful entry into or attack upon his habitation; however, he is justified in the use of force which is intended or likely to cause death or serious bodily injury only if:
(a) the entry is made or attempted in a violent and tumultuous manner, surreptitiously, or by stealth, and he reasonably believes that the entry is attempted or made for the purpose of assaulting or offering personal violence to any person, dwelling, or being in the habitation and he reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent the assault or offer of personal violence; or
(b) he reasonably believes that the entry is made or attempted for the purpose of committing a felony in the habitation and that the force is necessary to prevent the commission of the felony.
(2) The person using force or deadly force in defense of habitation is presumed for the purpose of both civil and criminal cases to have acted reasonably and had a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or serious bodily injury if the entry or attempted entry is unlawful and is made or attempted by use of force, or in a violent and tumultuous manner, or surreptitiously or by stealth, or for the purpose of committing a felony.

Amended by Chapter 252, 1985 General Session

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"The sword is more important than the shield and skill is more important then either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental."

 

[Futo Inu]

Two pieces of advice, worth what you're paying:

First, after a deadly force encounter, the most important thing is to NOT SAY A WORD TO ANYONE until after you've consulted a lawyer. I mean that as literally as I possibly can, except to call 911 and say "There's been a shooting. It was self defense. Bring an ambulance quickly please." The cops will try to question you 9 ways to Sunday. Remain steadfast, and refuse an interview or comment until meeting with a lawyer, no matter how justified you feel it was. I cannot stress this enough.

Second, before you "try" a game of paintball, make sure your heart's in good shape - it's so much fun that you'll wear yourself out.

Dennis, looks very insightful & good to me.

 

[ctdonath]

Dennis-
What doesn't look right? Looks correct to me.

( Paraphrased: )
Avoid rather then confront,
confront rather than control,
control rather than harm,
harm rather than injure,
injure rather than maim,
maim rather than kill...
...for all life is precious.

Remember that shooting a perp is your last option, done only because someone is about to die and you want to ensure it's not the innocent, and all other options have failed despite your best attempts. A defensive shooting is damage control, done only because it's the only way to prevent things from being even worse.

To rephrase your work-thru:
Better to avoid an assailant than face the assault.
Better to deter the assailant than shoot him.
Better to shoot him and be commended than to do so and be charged.
Better to have charges drop than have them stick.
Better to be alive in a cage than dead in a box.


[This message has been edited by ctdonath (edited January 13, 2000).]

 

[pluspinc]

Remember this. " A fish doesn't get caught unless it opens it's mouth." If you go to any jail you will find .001% are there because of brilliant police work. The rest opened their mouths.
We estimate that 85-90% of those claiming self-defense will be SUCCESSFULLY prosecuted. Self-defense is the ONLY time in the criminal justice system you will make it clear there are no other suspects and you did it on purpose. Stop and think about that. If you screwed up you are toast from a defense point of view in most cases.
The #1 reason self-defense cases are won by the prosecution is that you didn't retreat (it is required in most states in one form or another regardless of what you think) and you didn't AVOID the problem.
That is vital because about 85% or MORE of the time you will shoot someone you know. Jerk neighbor in-law etc. That is where our conflicts come from. Stranger to stranger shootings are not that common.
In Minnesota we had 33 women murdered last year, 3 by strangers. Our conflicts and arguments come from those we know or associate with.
When we see the "scenarios" on boards like these you don't see them start with, " My wife's ex shows up and wants to talk to her alone and he has a restraining order on him to stay away from her and........" Shooters have to understand where the dangers are and they are close to you.
Just because you know someone doesn't mean you can't defend yourself from them. I just had a man in class who got a carry permit to protect himself from his druggie kid who broke into the home twice and beat him for a PIN number.
When the conflict is emotional we make serious errors in judgment and thus make prosecution pretty easy. Our big mouths will cook us pretty fast.
Police are well trained and specialists at extracting information from us and rightfully so. You may think you can keep your mouth shut. I wish I had the space to give you examples of how I can get you to spill all the beans in short order. AND remember it is legal for a cop to lie to you. That sure helps the process from the prosecution side of things.
Also cops will use a technique known as the "six degress of separation" to attempt to connect you to the thug and they will do so in most cases. It is not hard to do.
Also the cops should not and will NOT buy your story on arrival. People lie to them all the time and they will always look at ALL the potential possibilities.
Either way those in shootings have said the AFTER effect is worse than the shooting. That should give you a clue.
I had one shooting where I heard on my radio while going to the grocery store with the family that I had been cleared. I was never called before the Grand Jury. I also heard on my car radio a few months later I was sued for several hundred thousand dollars and I hadn't gotten the papers yet. (case dismissed). You always reads in gun rags about what "almost happened" or what "might" have happened or no information allowing you to obtain court records etc. Write those off as pure fantasy and little more.