USA v. Meza-Rodriguez: 7th Circuit Rules Illegal Aliens Have 2nd Amendment Rights

Armed_Chicagoan

New member
I'm surprised this hasn't been posted here yet, decision came down last Thursday. A 7th Circuit appeals court panel has ruled that the 2nd Amendment applies to illegal aliens.

Final opinion: http://media.ca7.uscourts.gov/cgi-b...-20/C:14-3271:J:Wood:aut:T:fnOp:N:1608386:S:0

Concurrence: http://media.ca7.uscourts.gov/cgi-b...20/C:14-3271:J:Flaum:con:T:fnOp:N:1608386:S:0

In choosing to confront the issue, the majority roots its
constitutional analysis in the common use of the phrase “the
people” by the First, Second, and Fourth Amendments, and
the Supreme Court’s suggestion in United States v. Verdugo-
Urquidez, 494 U.S. 259, 265 (1990), that all persons, regardless
of citizenship, who are part of our “national community” or
who manifest a “sufficient connection with this country” are
entitled to the rights that those amendments bestow.

This splits with other circuit opinions, but it's nice to see that the court recognizes that "the people" really does mean "the people", and not the militia, or Bloomberg's bodyguards, or the police.

I wonder if the SCOTUS would hear an appeal of this one? They really do need to clarify Heller and the allowable exceptions Scalia only hinted at but other circuits have run wild with.
 
I'm not ready to acknowledge that "the People" of the Constitution includes people who are here illegally. I think it means people who have a right to be here.
 
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The 14th Amendment states,

nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

That much is clear. If they're on American soil, they have the right to due process and protection of the law.

At issue here is § 922(g)(5). The defendant's lawyer claimed the prohibition on illegal aliens owning firearms (or, in this case, a single .22 cartridge) is unconstitutional. The district court disagreed, and they went on to declare the the 2nd Amendment provides no protection to illegal aliens.

That second part is what the 7th Circuit disagrees with. They found that the specific prohibition in § 922(g)(5) passes muster, but that the 2A still applies on some level.

Oh, and folks? We don't do immigration policy. Such posts are off topic.
 

Frank Ettin

Administrator
So let's look at United States v. Meza-Rodriguez, 7th Circuit, No. 14-3271, 2015.

First, there nothing really new here. There are other cases in which courts have concluded that even illegal aliens can, under some circumstances, be entitled to the protections of the Bill of Rights. And there have been other court decisions which have upheld various of the factors enumerated in 18 USC 922(g) disqualifying one from possessing a gun or ammunition.

Background

As the 7th Circuit in its opinion outlined the background of the case (slip op., at 1 -- 2):
When Mariano Meza-Rodriguez, a citizen of Mexico, was arrested in August 2013, he was carrying a .22 caliber cartridge. But it was what he did not have— documentation showing that he is lawfully in the United States—that concerns us now. His immigration status made his possession of the cartridge a crime under 18 U.S.C. § 922(g)(5), which prohibits foreigners who are not entitled to be in the United States (whom we will call “unauthorized aliens”) from possessing firearms. Meza-Rodriguez moved to dismiss the indictment that followed, arguing that § 922(g)(5) impermissibly infringed on his rights under the Second Amendment to the Constitution. The district court denied his motion on the broad ground that the Second Amendment does not protect unauthorized aliens. That rationale swept too far, and we do not endorse it. The court’s judgment, however, was correct for a different reason: the Second Amendment does not preclude certain restrictions on the right to bear arms, including the one imposed by§ 922(g)(5)....

Questions on Appeal

Meza-Rodriguez' appeal of the District Court's refusal to dismiss his indictment potentially raises two questions: (1) do the rights protected by the Second Amendment extend to unauthorized aliens (using the terminology of the Circuit Court); and (2) if so, is prohibiting unauthorized aliens from possessing a gun or ammunition a constitutionally impermissible regulation of the rights protected by the Second Amendment?

To respond to and rule on Meza-Rodriguez' appeal, the Circuit Court needed to address both those questions.

Do the Rights Protected by the Second Amendment Extend to Unauthorized Aliens?

The Circuit Court did not comprehensively answer that question. Rather it concluded that the rights protected by the Second Amendment extended to Meza-Rodriguez, and unauthorized aliens similarly situated. To reach that conclusion, the Circuit Court looked at other cases extending under some circumstances certain rights enumerated in the Bill of Rights to unauthorized aliens.

As the 7th Circuit noted (Meza-Rodriguez, slip op. at 9 -- 10, emphasis added):
...The conclusion that the term “the people” in the Second Amendment has the same meaning as it carries in other parts of the Bill of Rights is just the first step in our analysis. We still must decide what it means. The Supreme Court has spoken on this issue, albeit obliquely. In Verdugo-Urquidez, the Court determined that the Fourth Amendment did not protect a noncitizen brought involuntarily to the United States against a warrantless search of his foreign residence. See Verdugo-Urquidez, 494 U.S. at 274–75. In rejecting Verdugo-Urquidez’s position, the Court stated that “‘the people’ protected by the Fourth Amendment, and by the First and Second Amendments, and to whom rights and powers are reserved in the Ninth and Tenth Amendments, refers to a class of persons who are part of a national community or who have otherwise developed sufficient connection with this country to be considered part of that community.” Id. at 265. Of interest here, the Court also said that “aliens receive constitutional protections when they have come within the territory of the United States and developed substantial connections with this country.” Id. at 271. ...

And with regard to Meza-Rodriguez' ties to the United States, the 7th Circuit notes (Meza-Rodriguez,slip op at 11):
...see first that Meza-Rodriguez was in the United States voluntarily; there is no debate on this point. He still has extensive ties with this country, having resided here from the time he arrived over 20 years ago at the age of four or five until his removal. He attended public schools in Milwaukee, developed close relationships with family members and other acquaintances, and worked (though sporadically) at various locations. This is much more than the connections our sister circuits have found to be adequate.....

Thus the rights protected by the Second Amendment extend to Meza-Rodriguez.

Is Prohibiting Unauthorized Aliens from Possessing a Gun or Ammunition a Constitutionally Impermissible Regulation of the Rights Protected by the Second Amendment?

And with regard to that question, the 7th Circuit concluded the disqualifying unauthorized aliens from possessing a gun or ammunition was a permissible regulation.

In sustaining the application of 18 USC 922(g)(5), the 7th Circuit found (slip op., at 15):
...Congress’s objective in passing § 922(g) was “to keep guns out of the hands of presumptively risky people” and to “suppress[] armed violence.” Yancey, 621 F.3d at 683–84 (citing S. REP. NO. 90-1501, at 22 (1968)); see also Huitron-Guizar, 678 F.3d at 1169–70 (§ 922(g)’s purposes are to assist law enforcement in combating crime and to keep weapons away from those deemed dangerous or irresponsible). One such group includes aliens “who … [are] illegally or unlawfully in the United States.” 18 U.S.C. § 922(g)(5)(A). The government argues that the ban on the possession of firearms by this group of people is substantially related to the statute’s general objectives because such persons are able purposefully to evade detection by law enforcement. We agree with this position: unauthorized noncitizens often live “largely outside the formal system of registration, employment, and identification, [and] are harder to trace and more likely to assume a false identity.” Huitron-Guizar, 678 F.3d at 1170. Persons with a strong incentive to use false identification papers will be more difficult to keep tabs on than the general population. (Section 922(g)(5)(B)’s prohibition on firearms possession by most aliens who are lawfully present but who hold only nonimmigrant visas reflects a similar concern....

Discussion

Basically, the 7th Circuit could not resolve this case by refusing to extend the rights protected by the Second Amendment to unauthorized aliens. Were it to do so, it would have undercut existing and important legal principles extending certain fundamental, personal rights to persons who , "...have come within the territory of the United States and developed substantial connections with this country...."

However, several of the conditions listed in 18 USC 922(g) disqualifying one from possessing a gun or ammunition have been sustained at the Circuit Court level.

If this case were to go up to the Supreme Court the arguments would focus on the disqualifying condition and whether it passes the applicable level of scrutiny.
 

NJgunowner

New member
OK, so let's look at this another way. In the state of NJ, and a few others, the requirements to purchase a gun are VERY steep. I'm talking finger printing, references, background checks, the kitchen sink...

Their very nature automatically excludes illegal aliens who can't produce the documentation or meet the requirements to get a Firearms purchase permit. How would they hold up if the supreme court did get involved and ruled that they can't be denied those rights under the 2nd amendment?
 

Doyle

New member
I don't understand how they could give such a conflicted ruling. In one sentence, they said that illegal aliens have 2A rights but in another sentence they upheld the federal ban on illegal aliens having firearms. Either they have a right or they don't - seems they can't make up their mind.
 

Frank Ettin

Administrator
Doyle said:
I don't understand how they could give such a conflicted ruling. In one sentence, they said that illegal aliens have 2A rights but in another sentence they upheld the federal ban on illegal aliens having firearms....
Why don't you try reading post 6?
 

motorhead0922

New member
All persons in this country illegally are "fugitives from justice" (form 4473, question 11d) and therefore cannot possess firearms.
 

2ndsojourn

New member
^^^ Additionally, para 11.k asks if you are here illegally, and a yes answer presumably DQ's you.

But all that could be beside the point if the SCOTUS deems that unconstitutional. And it won't be a unanimous decision. So who do you want deciding?...someone appointed to the bench by....erm...never mind.
 

Doyle

New member
Why don't you try reading post 6?

I did. That's why I still see a conflict between their conclusion that 2A extends to unauthorized aliens and their conclusion that a federal ban because they are unauthorized is legal.
 

Frank Ettin

Administrator
motorhead0922 said:
All persons in this country illegally are "fugitives from justice" (form 4473, question 11d) and therefore cannot possess firearms.
Cite a court decision saying so. In any case, that had nothing to do with the ruling of the 7th Circuit.

Doyle said:
I did. That's why I still see a conflict between their conclusion that 2A extends to unauthorized aliens and their conclusion that a federal ban because they are unauthorized is legal.
The you don't understand how courts decide these things. I actually explained it in post 6, and I don't know how to make it any clearer.

As I wrote in post 6 (emphasis added):
...Meza-Rodriguez' appeal of the District Court's refusal to dismiss his indictment potentially raises two questions: (1) do the rights protected by the Second Amendment extend to unauthorized aliens (using the terminology of the Circuit Court); and (2) if so, is prohibiting unauthorized aliens from possessing a gun or ammunition a constitutionally impermissible regulation of the rights protected by the Second Amendment?

To respond to and rule on Meza-Rodriguez' appeal, the Circuit Court needed to address both those questions....
and:
...Basically, the 7th Circuit could not resolve this case by refusing to extend the rights protected by the Second Amendment to unauthorized aliens. Were it to do so, it would have undercut existing and important legal principles extending certain fundamental, personal rights to persons who , "...have come within the territory of the United States and developed substantial connections with this country...." ...

In general, a court of appeal must address all the issues raisded by the appeal. In Meza-Rodriguez the 7th Circuit also had do deal with yet another issue: whether the fact that Meza-Rodriguez had already been deported made the appeal moot. The 7th Circuit decided the appeal was not moot since Meza-Rodriguez might want to seek re-entry to the U. S. I didn't bring that up because it wasn't relevant to the Second Amendment issues.
 

Metal god

New member
..have come within the territory of the United States and developed substantial connections with this country...." ...

So there is a statute of limitation on being an unauthorized alien of the US ? Can anyone please give me the amount of years it takes to no longer be here illegally ?

Or please give me the number family members one needs to produce , friends one must have or jobs one must have had to no longer be an unauthorized alien of the US ? Any combo of each will be fine as well in case just one is not good enough .

That quote and it's meaning may be one of the dumbest things I ever read . At what place in the bill of rights does it state that these rights exclude people with no family or friends and have not been in the US very long :rolleyes:
 

Frank Ettin

Administrator
Lets take a quick look at the real significance of Meza-Rodriguez.

There are two Second Amendment rulings in that case: (1) The Bill of Rights applies broadly to persons: and (2) The statutory prohibition of illegal aliens possessing guns or ammunition withstands Second Amendment scrutiny.

Let's look at the second one first: The statutory prohibition of illegal aliens possessing guns or ammunition withstands Second Amendment scrutiny.

This really isn't new. Other disqualifying conditions have been upheld at the Circuit Court level.

One case in the Sixth Circuit (Tyler v. Hillsdale County Sheriff's Department, No. 13-1876 (Sixth Circuit, 2014)) began to chip away at the mental health disqualifying condition. In that case, the three judge panel ruled essentially that while the disqualification withstood a Second Amendment facial attack, as applied the Second Amendment at least required that there be a way to seek relief from the disqualification.

An en banc hearing has been granted in Tyler, vacating the opinion of the three judge panel. However, that now vacated opinion provides some possibly useful insights into the sorts of arguments that might ultimately be useful in efforts to mitigate the 18 USC 922(g) disqualifications.

Now let's look at the first one: The Bill of Rights applies broadly to persons.

To reach this conclusion the 7th Circuit adopted a broad reading of the word "people" in the Second Amendment ("...the right of the people to keep and bear arms..."). I think this is significant because it further reinforces a core ruling in Heller, i. e., that the Second Amendment protects a fundamental and individual (rather than collective) right.

This result in Meza-Rodriguez, acknowledging the rights protected by the Second Amendment as fundamental and individual, suggests that the collective rights theory of the Second Amendment is being well and truly laid to rest.

Thoughts?
 
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Doyle

New member
Frank, thanks for breaking it down into a way that us non-lawyer-speaking folks can understand. Now, if we could just convince judges to write decisions that plainly.
 

Metal god

New member
began to chip away at the mental health disqualifying condition. In that case, the three judge panel ruled essentially that while the disqualification withstood a Second Amendment facial attack, as applied the Second Amendment at least required that there be a way to seek relief from the disqualification.

Sounds reasonable , kinda like getting relief from the disqualification by having a green card or no longer in the US illegally . If your visa and or any other qualifying factor becomes invalid . You must forfeit the firearm . If you don't comply you are charged with a felony and lose the right forever .

The government argues that the ban on the possession of firearms by this group of people is substantially related to the statute’s general objectives because such persons are able purposefully to evade detection by law enforcement. We agree with this position: unauthorized noncitizens often live “largely outside the formal system of registration, employment, and identification, [and] are harder to trace and more likely to assume a false identity.” Huitron-Guizar, 678 F.3d at 1170. Persons with a strong incentive to use false identification papers will be more difficult to keep tabs on than the general population.

Seems like a reasonable disqualifying factor . Problem is if they lie and or use false ID how do you stop them from getting a firearm .
 

barnbwt

New member
"This splits with other circuit opinions, but it's nice to see that the court recognizes that "the people" really does mean "the people", and not the militia, or Bloomberg's bodyguards, or the police."
Unless you just live here, but aren't a citizen, as described by our present set of laws, but are allowed to be here* for the time being. Sure sounds like a core, fundamental, inalienable human right to me ;)

"Seems like a reasonable disqualifying factor . Problem is if they lie and or use false ID how do you stop them from getting a firearm"
Moot argument if you bother to deport these folks for using said aliases and forged documentation in the first place (which they have to in order to pay the taxes they had better be paying while working here). Denying the RKBA based on someone's propensity toward an illegal behavior *cough* gang violence *cough* is a very slippery slope I'd rather we didn't tread down.

TCB

*yes, that is indeed the state of a great many "illegal" aliens in the nation at this time
 
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