US to convert Iraqi military to M-16 from AK-47

Buzzcook

New member
http://angrybear.blogspot.com/2008/02/payoff-so-obvious-that-cheerleaders-can.html

In a move that could be the most enduring imprint of U.S. influence in the Arab world, American military officials in Baghdad have begun a crash program to outfit the entire Iraqi army with M-16 rifles.

The initiative marks a sharp break for a culture steeped in the traditions of the Soviet-era AK-47 Kalashnikov assault rifle, a symbol of revolutionary zeal and third-world simplicity that is ubiquitous among the militaries of the Middle East.

"We in the U.S. know that the M-16 is superior to the AK ... it's more durable," said Army Col. Stephen Scott, who's in charge of helping the Iraqi army get all the equipment it needs to outfit its forces.

"It's more durable"
Not the first thing that comes to mind when I compare an AK to a M-16
 

Forwardassist

New member
This has more do with helping out US military defense contractors than any sound military reasoning. We are already giving the Iraqi military new and used weapons such as up armored M113s, and Hummers. Switching over the Iraqi military to US made goods is a huge boon to the US military defense companies. I am sure supplying the Iraqi's with US made good now might seem like a good idea, but like other times we did this it will come around and bite us in the ass. Iranian F-14 Tomcats anyone.

The M16 does have some advantages over a Ak-47 design. First it is more modular than a AK, allowing the additions of rails system for all types of add ons. And it is also far more accurate than a Ak-74. Beyond that the AK wins in reliability, Simplicity and durability. The AK was designed for a Conscript army with limited training. The M16 like most western arms, is designed for a well trained army. That being said the Iraqi army should stay with Russian goods, even if bought from other countries like Poland and the Czech Republic.
 

Caeser23

New member
"It's more durable"
Not the first thing that comes to mind when I compare an AK to a M-16

sure it is, that's the first thing that comes to mind, the AK wins everytime:D
 

WhyteP38

New member
I am sure supplying the Iraqi's with US made good now might seem like a good idea, but like other times we did this it will come around and bite us in the ass. Iranian F-14 Tomcats anyone.
The kind of advanced technology you can reverse-engineer from a jet fighter is a whole lot different from that of a rifle that's over 40-years-old. Anyone with around $1500 can buy a current, semi-auto Colt AR-15 that is, for technology purposes, as close to a full-auto, current-issue M16 as you need. This deal won't make any difference in that regard.

Besides, if the people in those ubiquitous "AR v. AK" debates who think the AK is better are right, maybe our troops will be safer if Iraq someday becomes our enemy.

Frankly, I don't see that it's a big worry.
 

toybox99615

New member
where will they go

so where will all these AK47s end up. I doubt well see any of them being available to us through military surplus.


Here we have a population that would have used muskets but we have to arm them with M16 as the AK 47 is not technically advanced enough. What a crock of crap.
 

Crosshair

New member
Please, don't take offense, I'm just being a smart*ss.:D

American military officials in Baghdad have begun a crash program to outfit the entire Iraqi army with M-16 rifles.
Translation: Bush gave us a ton more funding and we have to spend it.
"We in the U.S. know that the M-16 is superior to the AK ... it's more durable,"
Translation: Col. Stephen Scott, "We in the U.S. know that the M-16 is superior to the AK."
Reporter, "How is it superior?"
*Crickets chirping*
Col. Stephen Scott, *thinking* "Um, it's cheaper......no. Easier to train on......no. More reliable.....no. More customizable..(Looks at Tapco catalog)...no."
Reporter, "Sir?"
Col. Stephen Scott, "Um, it's more durable."
The Iraqis have embraced that ... and the fact that it is U.S. manufactured and supplied. They are very big on U.S.-produced materials
Translation: Because they don't have to pay for it.
So far, the U.S. military has helped the Iraqi army purchase 43,000 rifles - a mix of full-stock M-16A2s and compact M-4 carbines
Translation: replace "helped" with "given".
"Our goal is to give every Iraqi soldier an M-16A2 or an M-4," Scott said.
Translation: We have no idea if we can achieve this. It's only a goal.
"And as the Iraqi army grows, we will adjust."
Translation: We will move the goalposts as needed.
Scott added the mass of AK-47s from various manufacturers floating through the Iraqi army's inventory could cause maintenance and reliability problems.
Translation: I have never taken an AK-47 apart.
Getting both U.S. and Iraqi forces on the same page when it comes to basic weaponry is part of the argument for M-16 outfitting.
Because at the rate we are going, we will be there for the next 30 years.
"I'm also a fan of AKs," Scott said.
Translation: Must make the pork barrel spending less obvious.
"But keep in mind most of these AKs have been sitting around in bunkers or whatnot for 30 or 40 years [and] are in various stages of disrepair."
Translation: We are going to replace them with M-16s that have been sitting around in bunkers or whatnot for 30 or 40 years and are in various stages of disrepair.
After seeing some of the firing range training himself, Scott added that he "asked the Iraqis how they liked the weapon and they said it was far superior, it was more accurate ... and more reliable."
Translation: Superior, more accurate, and more reliable than an AK that was run over by a T-72 back in 1991.
A system that registers each rifle with the individual who receives it using biometric data such as thumb prints and eye scans is meant to address concerns over U.S. weapons winding up in enemy hands.
Translation: There is no way we are going to prevent them from selling their weapons or deserting so we have to make it sound like we are doing something hi-tech to address it.
That's something Scott isn't going to allow on his watch.
Translation: That's why he's transferring to a different unit next month.
"These Iraqi soldiers know that this weapon becomes part of their person," he said. "And they also know that they are responsible and accountable for that weapon."
Translation: So they know they have to make it look like it was stolen.
"Most of the soldiers think they will be just like the Americans, and that is making them very happy," said Capt. Rafaat Mejal Ahmed, the Iraqi 1st Division weapons and ammunition officer.
Translation: We will do whatever is needed, just give us more cool stuff.
"They think the modern technology will make them more powerful."
Translation: Despite the last 50 years of Arab history proving otherwise.

The M16 does have some advantages over a Ak-47 design.
Translation: Like working outside a clean room.
First it is more modular than a AK, allowing the additions of rails system for all types of add ons.
Translation: There wasn't enough room on the AK for the CD player.
And it is also far more accurate than a Ak-74....
Translation: ...If you use the sights.

I hope everyone got a good laugh.:D
 

Forwardassist

New member
so where will all these AK47s end up. I doubt well see any of them being available to us through military surplus.

Probably many will be sold on the Black market to help line the pockets of some corrupt officials. Corruption is a normal in Iraq. Maybe that one reason the Iraqi officials want US weapons since they can be sold for more of a profit. In another article I read about this, US officials are already aware that crates of M16s grew legs and walked out of the well guarded supply depot. This whole deal reeks of politcal patronage, and padding the pockets of defense companies. Next we will be selling them M1 tanks, and F16s. Like I said before this only benefits the companies, and politicians whose districts will benefit from the deals. Many of these weapons will be sold to the terrorist, who will use them against our own soldiers.
 

JuanCarlos

New member
Many of these weapons will be sold to the terrorist, who will use them against our own soldiers.

If so, then it's a brilliant plan. Because without proper maintenance (which the average insurgent is unlikely to perform) and without the proper training (which they are unlikely to have) the M16 is either no better than an AK-47, or actually worse. At this point all we've done is increase the odds that the average insurgent will experience a weapon malfunction when he goes to shoot one of our soldiers.

Though Crosshair just made my day with his translation. That was brilliant!
 
Hell, they are probably cheaper than the special-order 5.56 AKs we were buying them a while back. I seem to recall that we were being fleeced by the rooskis on that deal.

So Colt and FNUSA make some more cash instead of sending it overseas. Sounds ok to me.

If I was in the Iraqi army and had a good-shooting AK, though, I would probably be less happy with the deal.
 

Forwardassist

New member
If so, then it's a brilliant plan.

Really, so arming the terrorist with a more accurate weapons is a brilliant plan? Wait until we start selling the Iraqi's advanced weapon like the Javelin ATM, and other sophisticated weapons systems. Then we will really see how great these weapons are when they are knocking out our tanks. While maintenance is important, I see the terrorist as smart enough to know they have to keep them clean. If they are too much a headache, they might even turn around and sell them to fund getting more AKs and PKMs. There will be a buyer for slightly used M-16s. On top of that other armaments are disappearing from the Iraq armories, such as RPGs, medium machine guns and of course ammo all of this we supplied to the Iraqi's. What we are doing is arming on enemy with advanced deadly weapons that will end up killing our soldiers. Let them buy their own weapons with their oil money.
 

toybox99615

New member
more truthful than we know

Crosshair far more realistic than fiction. But I'm sure you know that. Great post. :D



I wonder how inexpensive an AK47 or M16 would be on the black-market in Iraq. I'll bet they go for less than they do at a gun show here. And you would not have to deal with all that conversion stuff as they are OEM units. I sense a few buck to be made buying there and shipping them here.:D
 

JuanCarlos

New member
Really, so arming the terrorist with a more accurate weapons is a brilliant plan? Wait until we start selling the Iraqi's advanced weapon like the Javelin ATM, and other sophisticated weapons systems.

I wasn't talking about Javelins. I was talking about M16s. And really, when you get down to it, M16s are a marginal improvement over AK-47s, assuming they will maintain them and train for them. If they don't, then they're either no improvement at all, or actually less effective weapons.

In this thread, I'm talking about equipping them with M16s over AK-47s, not the idea of equipping them at all. You have a point that they could just turn around and sell them to buy more inexpensive rifles, or bombmaking parts, or what have you. The lack of accountability for the weapons we are buying for them (or whether we should be buying any to begin with) is a separate issue.

But M16s and M4s in general are hardly "advanced deadly weapons." At least no more so that any other military rifle.
 

armedtotheteeth

New member
Just another AK versus Ar thread :barf:. How many is this?? eleventy thousand hundred? Ars need a shot of oil evry now and again. Youd think that they could find oil in IRAQ. they dont need cleaning. just a little lube
My Ar has been far more reliable than fellow hunters AKs or SKS, by a long shot. Average groups on the aks are about 8 inches , mine are well under an inch. granted, ars dont have as much knockdown power, but, knockdown doent matter if you miss now does it
 

jrfoxx

New member
And this is likely to decrease our civilian 5.56 supply even further, and raise our cost even more (at an even faster pace than other ammo, which is also going up), due to the filling of U.S. military contracts like we have been, but now Iraqi contracts too.May be time to start testing Wolf, Brown Bear, Golden Tiger, Barnaul, etc in my Bushmaster to see what it likes (and buy a few extra extractors to have on hand, in case the "steel ammo will break/quickly wear your extractor" people are right).....




Hopefully someone will soon post that I'm wrong, it wont be any more $$, or any harder to find, and it will turn out that they are correct, and my tinfoil's just turned inside-out....:D.That would be the happiest i've ever been to be wrong before....
 

jfrey123

New member
Quote:
First it is more modular than a AK, allowing the additions of rails system for all types of add ons.
Translation: There wasn't enough room on the AK for the CD player.

Thank you very much for causing my first out loud laugh at the office... The office mate is still looking at me like WTH?!

Makes you wonder if the iPod would bet better as an add on...


Sorry, back to topic. :cool:
 

rhgunguy

Moderator
The AK-47 is the best assault rifle ever made. The M-16 is the best made assault rifle ever.

The M-16 is more durable compared to stamped AKs, but as far as ruged reliability in a desert environment goes, the AK is the winner hands down.
 

toybox99615

New member
how about this thought

here in the US Americans should not own a full auto M16 as they are to dangerous or might be used by terrorist. (that is the basic argument without getting into pages and pages.) But in Iraq we are giving M16s out like they are passing out donuts at the Red Cross booth. Somethings wrong with this picture.
 

JuanCarlos

New member
here in the US Americans should not own a full auto M16 as they are to dangerous or might be used by terrorist. (that is the basic argument without getting into pages and pages.) But in Iraq we are giving M16s out like they are passing out donuts at the Red Cross booth. Somethings wrong with this picture.

Not really. For one, we aren't handing the M16s to civilians, so in theory they're only going to the authorities (military/police). Two, I imagine lawmakers are more worried about the streets of Detroit than Baghdad, and getting one of those M16s from the latter to the former isn't as easy as having one stolen out of somebody's house in Dearborn. Three, even assuming we care about safety on the streets of Baghdad (and we should, if only because our guys are there) you're talking about a country where private ownership of full-auto rifles is already far from uncommon...so it's not like the risk of these rifles being stolen (or "stolen") is really a huge issue from a "dangerous weapons falling into the wrong hands" standpoint anyway.


Of course, I don't agree with the reasoning used to argue that private citizens here shouldn't own full-auto weapons regardless. Just saying the two issues (that and handing them out in Iraq) are not related.
 
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