US Military switching back to the .45?

[Stiofan]

Just saw this article but haven't seen any other confirmation on it. I apologize if there is already a thread on it, but couldn't find one.

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htweap/articles/20060127.aspx

SOCOM has been given the task of finding a design that will be suitable as the JCP (Joint Combat Pistol). Various designs are being evaluated, but all must be .45 caliber and have a eight round magazine (at least), and high capacity mags holding up to 15.​

 

[denfoote]

The bid request is for essentially an off the shelf double action ACP pistol.

Watch Ruger get it with the P345!!!

 

[Greg Bell]

The smart money is on the HK45. The requirements look like they were drawn up for this gun, not the other way around. Excellent ergonomics designed for a wide array of hand sizes (note the P2000 style grip) and total ambidexterity. Semi-staggered mags which appear to be stretched USP compact .45 mags. Note the C&L capability and the industry rail. Good stuff. I will be wasting my money on one if HK deigns to sell me one.

 

[Stiofan]

Didn't they nix the Sig last time because of unit cost was too high. I'd think the HK would be in the same boat.

 

[Greg Bell]

Who knows? HK has equipped entire nations with weapons. I suspect they will offer a serious break on a half million guns. Plus, they will probably get various tax incentives (kick-backs) for opening up a plant in the USA. I am sure it will be interesting whatever happens.

 

[aspen1964]

..if this is true..how are the 'niners' going to take this??? ? ? ?

 

[Half-Price Assassin]

think cheap

the US army wont pick the HK .45, cause it cost too much. remember why the military picked the 92fs, cost. if they are smart they might consider the xd45, or GLOCK 37. there is no way the US army is going to give our troops a new pistol that costs more then their current battlerifle (m-16), but i could be wrong, wouldnt be the first time

 

[Vic]

I have been waiting for Academy to get in a MilSpect 1911 from Springfield, they told me today that Springfield is filling a large order for Uncle Sam, and that they will not be shipping out any 1911's until then.
Could it be....

 

[Greg Bell]

the US army wont pick the HK .45, cause it cost too much. remember why the military picked the 92fs, cost. if they are smart they might consider the xd45, or GLOCK 37. there is no way the US army is going to give our troops a new pistol that costs more then their current battlerifle (m-16), but i could be wrong, wouldnt be the first time

The Glock and the XD don't meet specs (for one thing, they lack re-strike capabilities).

I wonder if the new C&L SIG 220 is in the running. Basically, again, it looks like the Army wants the HK and built the contest around it. The Army wanted the HK rifle to, but politics grenaded the whole thing. The military was slapped down for not having competitive bidding, not favoring colt, US manufacturers, etc. This time it looks like they found the pistol they wanted and then designed the bid around it. No other production gun meets the specs so the competition is likely to be slim.

 

[USMCGrunt]

Neither the XD45 nor the G37 have the adjustable backstrap and second strike capability the contract requires. Also, .45 GAP ain't gonna happen either. I agree that the HK45 is the one I would expect to be chosen. I may be wrong and there may be another candidate in the running we haven't seen much of yet but as it stands at present, I think it's going to be the HK45.

 

[Greg Bell]

.if this is true..how are the 'niners' going to take this???

As something of a "niner" myself, I am not bothered at all. The military continues to bind itself to the notion that it cannot issue modern ammunition (hollowpoints). As long as it won't issue quality hollowpoints the 9mm is going to give stunted performance. With modern ammo, the 9mm +P HP is superior to ball .45. Frankly, there isn't any convincing evidence that the .45 in modern loadings is much different than .9mm when it comes to results. 9mm has better barrier penetration, .45 retains more weight, blah, blah. Either way, if your gonna go ball, might as well make em' big. Plus, .45 is a better suppressed round.

Either way, I want one!

 

[Te Anau]

I hope they go with Ruger this time.Rugers are every bit as durable and reliable as any other make of gun and American made.They screwed up when they went with Berettas.
"Lets pick an open top slide for maximum reliabilty in a harsh,sandy environment."

 

[Rob96]

From what I have been told, the specs are around the pistol that SOCOM wants. I think it is going to either be the HK45 or the S&W M&P.

 

[Doug.38PR]

its about time.

8-15 rounds. Springfield Armory GI is cheap and quailty and carries from 7-15 rounds:

 

[Greg Bell]

The HK45 is the only known gun that they can pick

I don't think any gun meets the specs other than the HK 45


3.3.3. Accessory Rail. The JCP shall have an integral MIL-STD-1913 rail for the attachment of accessories (T). The rail shall be located forward of the trigger guard on the lower portion of the frame (T).

3.4.1. Action: The JCP shall function in double action/single action (DA/SA) or double-action only (DAO) including Striker-Fired Action (SFA) (T). The JCP should have a modular action mechanism that allows reconfiguration at the unit level without modification to the weapon¡¦s major assemblies (O).


3.4.2. Trigger Pull: All DA/SA pistols shall have a consistent trigger pull of eight to ten [8-10] pounds on Double Action, and a consistent trigger pull of four to six [4-6] pounds on Single Action and all DAO pistols shall have a trigger pull of five to eight [5-8] pounds (T). All pistols shall have a trigger pull that is consistent within one [1] pound from average pull (T). When pressure is applied to the JCP trigger and then released, the trigger shall reset to its forward-most position, even if the pistol is not fired (T). The operator shall be capable of pulling the trigger, without shifting the firing grip as will be tested in section 3.6.3.


3.4.4. Ergonomic Enhancements: The JCP shall be operable for a range of operators from the 5th to 95th percentile per section 3.6.3. To aid in this, the JCP should incorporate a modular grip adjustment system to provide enhanced ergonomics (O).


3.4.6.1. DA/SA Pistols. The JCP in the DA/SA configuration shall have an internal safety mechanism that prevents the loaded cartridge from firing if the pistol is dropped or struck and mechanically prevents the firing pin/striker from contacting the cartridge primer unless the trigger is pulled (T). DA/SA pistols shall have a de-cocking lever that lowers the hammer from a cocked position and returns the pistol to DA mode when activated (T). The JCP design shall prevent the firing of a chambered cartridge when the hammer is cocked and the de-cocking lever is activated (T). The operator shall be capable of activating the de-cocking lever with the firing hand (T). The operator should be capable of activating the de-cocking lever without shifting the firing grip (O). If configured with external safety, the weapon shall meet the requirements of 3.4.6.1.1.

3.4.6.1.1. DA/SA Pistols with External Safety. The JCP in DA/SA mode with an external manual safety shall meet all the requirements of 3.4.6.1 with the addition of: The external manual safety shall prevent firing when the manual safety is applied and the trigger is pulled (T). The operator shall be capable of activating the external manual safety with the firing hand (T). The operator should be capable of activating the external manual safety without shifting the firing grip (O).


3.4.6.2. DAO Pistols. The JCP in DAO shall have an internal safety mechanism that prevents the loaded cartridge from firing if the pistol is dropped or struck and mechanically prevents the firing pin/striker from contacting the cartridge primer unless the trigger is pulled (T). If configured with an external safety, the pistol shall meet the requirements of 3.4.6.2.1.

3.4.6.2.1. DAO Pistols with External Safety. The JCP in DAO with an external safety shall meet the requirements of 3.4.6.2 with the addition of: The external safety shall prevent firing when applied and the trigger is pulled (T). When configured with an external safety, the operator shall be capable of activating and deactivating the external safety with the firing hand (T), and should be capable of activating and deactivating the external safety without shifting the firing grip (O).




The SIG is out. The Glock is out. The Smith M&P is out (despite the name), the Walther is out, The Ruger is out. Who else, other than HK has a gun like this?

 

[BUSTER51]

no weapon produced by a non American company not made on American soil should ever be considered .we need to wake up and stop takeing chances on who will be our friend when the **** hits the fan . American made weapons ,made of 100%American parts is what we need to defend this country and it's people we can't trust anyone else .we need controle of supply and quality. I prefer not to read a book titled " The Rise And Fall of America" (made and printed in CHINA) A 12 round .45acp single action semi auto pistol made in America would fit the bill nicely.

 

[Andrew LB]

there is no way the US army is going to give our troops a new pistol that costs more then their current battlerifle (m-16), but i could be wrong, wouldnt be the first time

I agree. While a great handgun, and fulfilling just about any requirement you can throw at it, the HK is just too expensive.

 

[USMCGrunt]

I suppose if our American gun makers could come up with something innovative, I'd be inclined to agree with you. However, when you compare the quality and innovation of the Euproean guns, American companies come up short.

 

[JR47]

American manufacturers are severly restricted due to the prevailing laws and lawsuits, and liability concerns. They also suffer from restrictive export regulations, and aren't helped nearly as much by the government as European manufacturers are.

The sales of weapons that most of our companies have to count on are those of the civilian sector, who are mostly very conservative in their purchasing history.

 

[Stiofan]

A bit more information as to the procurement.

Solicitation number : H92222-05-R-0017Title : 10 -- Joint Combat Pistol (JCP) System
General Information
Document Type: Presolicitation Notice Solicitation Number: H92222-05-R-0017 Posted Date: Aug 26, 2005 Original Response Date: Nov 29, 2005 Current Response Date: Nov 29, 2005 Original Archive Date: Oct 14, 2005 Current Archive Date: Oct 14, 2005 Classification Code: 10 -- Weapons Naics Code: 332994 -- Small Arms Manufacturing
Contracting Office AddressOther Defense Agencies, U.S. Special Operations Command, Headquarters Procurement Division, 7701 Tampa Point Blvd, MacDill AFB, FL, 33621-5323
Description
The USSOCOM intends to issue a solicitation to obtain commercially available non-developmental item (NDI) Joint Combat Pistol (JCP) system, Caliber .45 (ACP). The Program will use full and open competition to fulfill the JCP requirement.The JCP will be delivered in accordance with specification entitled "Performance Specification Joint Combat Pistol" to be provided with issuance of the solicitation.Two configurations of the pistol will be required.One configuration will have no external safety and the other configuration will have an external safety.The Combat Pistol System consists of: a Caliber .45 pistol and its ancillary equipment including: Magazines (standard and high-capacity); Suppressor Attachment Kit for operation of the pistol with and without sound suppressor; Holster; Magazine Holder (standard and high-capacity); Cleaning Kit; and Operator's Manual.The contract type will be an Indefinite Delivery/Indefinite Quantity (IDIQ) issuing Firm-Fixed Price (FFP) delivery orders. The contract period of performance shall be Five (5)years with an option to extend for an additional Five (5) years.The Minimum Quantity is 24 each Engineering Test Units (ETU's), 12 each with external manual safety and 12 each without external manual safety. The estimated Maximum quantities are: 45,000 no external safety JCP configuration and 600,000 JCP with the external safety configuration; 649,000 Holsters; 96,050 Standard Capacity Magazines; 192,099 High Capacity Magazines; 667,000 Magazine Holders; 132,037 Suppressor attachment kits; Provisioning Item Order, Technical Data Package and associated Data.Transportation shall be F.O.B. Destination.The solicitation will require, free of charge to the government, delivery of 24 each product samples along with a concise written proposal all due on the closing date stated in the solicitation. The 24-each product sample from the successful offeror may be accepted as the Minimum Quantity. Any subsequent delivery orders for JCP's will order between 50 each and 200,000 each with a maximum monthly delivery rate of 5,000 each.Any subsequent orders for the ancillary items will require delivery to commence within 60 days after receipt of order. The product samples and written proposal will be evaluated on a best value basis and the Government will reserve the right to award to other than the lowest priced offeror and other than the highest technically rated offeror.Product samples from unsuccessful offerors will be returned to the offerors upon request and at the offeror's expense. The Government cannot guarantee the condition of the product samples after testing.All responsible sources may submit a proposal, which shall be considered by the agency.The Government intend to issue a draft solicitation. Notifications, Solicitation, and other communication will be posted via FEDBIZOPS.Questions may be emailed to Contract Specialist, Mr. Pfender at john.pfender@navy.mil.​