US Military Designations

['88Scrat]

Maybe kind of a strange question, but what happened to the firearms in between the well known ones?

For example the Garand was the first rifle designated M1; United States Rifle Caliber .30 M1. The next standard issue rifle was the M14 and then the M16. But what happened to the missing ones, the M11 rifle for example?

Same could said of pistols, how did we go from the M9 to the M17?

Carbines are a little easier to track as there are only 4 of them that I know of.

Just curious

 

[SIGSHR]

Up until 1936 or so US weapons and other equipment had numerical designations indicating the year of adoption-M1903 Rifle, M1911 Pistol, M1917 Rifle, etc. After that, numbers were just sort of assigned. Occasionally there was an inbetween model. The first Thompson adopted by the military was the M1928A1 Thompson, the simplified war time model was the M-1, there was the M-2 Hyde sub machine gun which was dropped in favor of the M-3 Grease Gun. The M-15 was the heavy barrel version of the M-14, meant to replace the BAR, it was formally adopted, but never produced.

 

[ballardw]

I suspect some of this relates to prototypes. XM, experimental models, for design testing and such. Then if "accepted" into use just drop the X and you have the model number. Though I think between M1 and M14 they may have been using T, for test?, models as well.

My rifle in basic training had XM16E1 on the receiver. Looked an awful lot like the M16A1 I was issued when I got to my unit.

 

[RickB]

During WWII, soldiers might have been issued the M1 rifle, the M1 Carbine, or the M1 SMG, all employed while wearing the M1 helmet.

There was a M2 SMG adopted, but it took so long to develop and get into production, it's almost unknown today, while the M3 "grease gun" was in service for decades.

There were M2 and M3 Carbines, both based on the M1, so when a shortened AR Carbine was adopted, it became the M4.

McNamara wanted things nice and neat in the '60s, so the USAF F-110 became standardized across the services as the F-4, while older aircraft had their designations retroactively changed to match the new numbering system, so the F9F Cougar became the F-9, the F11F Tiger became the F-11, even though their design and entry into service predated the F-4; sometimes there's no orderly progression.

 

[4V50 Gary]

Thanks RickB. I never knew where the M4 came from.

 

[44 AMP]

Military designations are not just confusing to civilians (and, hopefully the enemy) but can also be confusing to the troops, as well, which is why names and nicknames are commonly used, as long as its not official paperwork.

During WWII, in addition to all the different M1s we had lots of other "overlaps" in the number system, until you included an additional designator.

We had an M3 light tank (the Stuart), an M3 Medium tank (the Lee, and the Grant), an M3 halftrack (no nickname I'm aware of) and an M3 SMG (the Grease gun) and probably some other M3s I'm not familiar with.

Sometimes, later developed models of an item jump well beyond the established system, too.

We had an M73 coax MG in the M60 tank. Its improvement and replacement was the M73A1. The M73A1 was improved (though still the same base design) but that gun became the M219, not the M73A2...
and the replacement for the M219 was the M240, a completely different and vastly superior gun.

All the current vehicles have alphanumeric designations, but are commonly referred to in conversation by the initials of their names, Humvee, MRAP etc.

There are rules and systems but they aren't always followed and in order to understand things well, you just have to learn the jargon and the histories.

Like why CCKW was a certain truck and its amphibious version is the DUKW.

(and despite the modern news calling them "duck boats" they aren't and never were...)

 

[gbclarkson]

I was issued two M9s: a pistol manufactured by Beretta and a bayonet made by whomever makes M9 bayonets.

I have another, related, question. Why are some military designations M-number and others Mk- (Mark)-number?

 

[ballardw]

MK always seemed to be more likely to appear in Navy/Marines for general items and some "dumb" (not guided) ordnance in the Air Force.
From a casual perspective.

 

[RETG]

I served and gave up trying to figure out military numbering systems. When I served you had to be specific in what you volunteered for.
If asked about carrying an M60, you wanted clarification....
Was it this

Or this

 

[dakota.potts]

Why are some military designations M-number and others Mk- (Mark)-number?

According to what I can find online, Mk. is used for items which were developed by or through the Navy. Makes sense because most of the Mk. designated firearms I could think of off the top of my head were Navy:

Mk. 23 - HK .45 handgun
Mk. 13 - .300 Win Mag bolt action rifle based on the Remington 700 (and later Stiller) action
Mk. 11 and 12 - Semiautomatic marksman rifle/ special purpose rifle
Mk. 18 - CQBR receiver for M4

I was a bit surprised by the Mk. 19 (automatic grenade launcher) and didn't expect it was a Navy development but Wiki credits its design to Naval Ordnance Station Louisville

 

[44 AMP]

After speaking with an old Marine, it seems they were told that if it was developed by or through the Navy/Marines it usually got an M number. If it was developed for the Navy/Marines by civilians it usually got an MK designation and if it was bought "off the shelf" it got an MK designation.

Said he was issued a MK 870 shotgun for guard duty.

The Army has its own system and the Air Force "has its head in the clouds and no one understands them, but them"

apparently the MK designation for Air Force bombs is a carryover from the WWII system, I don't know the details.

I was a bit surprised by the Mk. 19 (automatic grenade launcher) and didn't expect it was a Navy development but Wiki credits its design to Naval Ordnance Station Louisville

The Marine Corps is part of the Navy Dept, always has been. Marines get major support from the Navy. The most obvious is that Marine combat medics are Navy Corpsmen...and while they have their own procurement system the Marines also get Navy developed items that the Navy doesn't want or use.

The Air Force was part of the Army, until after WWII until they became their own separate service, and they still received a lot of their support from the Army for many years after that. It was, in fact, the ending of Army support for the Air Force's small arms that began the chain of events that led to the adoption of the M16 as our service rifle, and that's a story in and of itself.

 

[T. O'Heir]

1,280px is too big.
I've run into guys who said some very rude things about the M60. snicker.
"...all the different M1s..." Yep, Rifles, Carbines, helmets, etc. So you had a Model 1 Rifle, Carbine and Helmet. Along with hordes of other Model 1 stuff.
Many of the 'in between' numbers were on experimental or trial stuff.
A 'Mark' is on stuff that had some minor change, like the sights, that wasn't enough to give it its own Model number.
USSOCOM called the HK pistol a Mk 23 too. There was a Mk 23 Torpedo during W.W. II too.
"...through the Navy..." They have their own peculiar ideas. Up here, they call the gun in the forward turret a 3"/50 Calibre. Three inches is 76mm. They dress the slept in their clothes too.
"...the Lee, and the Grant..." Were actually British designations for the U.S. Mark 3 tank, based on the turret configuration and crew size. One had a small turret on top with a 37mm gun. The other a smaller turret with an MG.

 

[dakota.potts]

A 'Mark' is on stuff that had some minor change, like the sights, that wasn't enough to give it its own Model number.

True on some stuff but not all. I have a 1905 Ross Mk. II. But of course that's not enough, it's a Mk. II***** because they had to use stars for account for even smaller model revisions.

A lot of the Mk. Denomination weapons use the modifier Mod to account for revisions. For instance the Mk. 12 Mod 0 and Mod 1. I think the Mk. 13 is up to Mod 7 last I heard.

And then you have the designations for A and E. Some model revisions get an A-numeric and some get an E-Numeric

You also have XM experimental designations (XM16E1, XM3, XM8) and T Trials designations (T48 was the designation for the FAL in trials)

 

[44 AMP]

In the US system (from WWI on) "A" designation represents some significant design change from the previous model and "E" represents a smaller engineering change. For example an early war Sherman tank was an M4, or an M4A1 and by the end of the war we were fielding the M4A3E8

The British Commonwealth system uses both numbers (No.) and marks (MK) together, as part of their routine designation for small arms and also uses the "star" (*) to designate smaller changes. (for ex., rifle No.1 Mark III *)

Each nation has their own system, and it seems every nation also has exceptions to their rules.

 

[dakota.potts]

For example an early war Sherman tank was an M4, or an M4A1 and by the end of the war we were fielding the M4A3E8

Any such examples of this on firearms? I can't recall running across any that had both.

 

[44 AMP]

Usually firearms don't get through the full range of mods before getting a new number designation.

And also when they get an "E" designation on the end of the regular one, it usually stands for an experimental test model. Some of which do get fielded, others never do.

In WWII, we had the Browning 1919A4 and A6
in the 50s we had an M14E2 under developement as a squad auto weapon. Not adopted.

Various rifles in the development series that lead to the M14 were T-something E1 or E2. Small Arms of the World (Smith) shows several.

With the Sherman, the basic tank model was the M4, the specific version of the tank was the M4A3, and the E8 referred to the HVSS suspension system used, so all together it was the M4A3E8

small arms are that complicated, usually....

 

[RayVa]

Human

My designation in the Army was 66H9C.

 

[Rob228]

I was a bit surprised by the Mk. 19 (automatic grenade launcher) and didn't expect it was a Navy development but Wiki credits its design to Naval Ordnance Station Louisville

The only place I've seen them on Naval vessels has been on a Landing Craft Unit (LCU), and for some reason every single one I've seen aboard an LCU has had the feed throat clipped on upside down.

 

[ballardw]

1,280px is too big.

"...through the Navy..." They have their own peculiar ideas. Up here, they call the gun in the forward turret a 3"/50 Calibre. Three inches is 76mm.

With naval rifles things like 3"/ 50 calibre are very specific as the "calibre" hear represents the length of the barrel in multiples of the diameter. So a 3/ 50 is a 150" long tube, which would typically have greater velocity and range then then 3/45 or 3/40 versions.

For extra added fun try to keep track of Army/Navy (and later Air Force) electronic equipment. There was actually a "standardized" AN/ (3 letter combination)-number to designate the equipment with the 3 letters show the purpose of the equipment, such as "counter measures" "receiver" "transmitter" for communications, radar or what have you. BUT the same electronic boxes mounted in a different vehicle could change the "purpose". So the maintenance manuals for my US Army MLQ used in the early 80's reflected ALR from a WWII bomber.

 

[44 AMP]

Caliber (Calibre in British spelling) has two main uses. In small arms it is the size of the bore as we're all familiar with.

But with artillery, it is the size of the bore, AND it is also the length of the gun barrel in multiples of bore diameter.

Also, in artillery, a longer gun tube length can mean a larger case is used.

The US Navy uses the term caliber or both bore size and barrel length. Generally the US Army does not use the term for barrel length, only bore size.