US Marines/Australia joint police action in East Timor?

DC

Moderator Emeritus
http://www.theage.com.au/daily/990810/news/news3.html
US marines set for Dili

By PAUL DALEY
FOREIGN AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT
CANBERRA

American military officials told Australian
defence strategists in June that the US would
consider deploying up to 15,000 troops to East
Timor, if bloodshed dramatically escalated in the
troubled Indonesian province.

Specific details of American contingencies for
East Timor were revealed to The Age after the
Foreign Minister, Mr Alexander Downer,
yesterday told Federal Parliament he was not
aware of any US proposal for peace enforcement
in East Timor.

A top-level diplomatic source has made it clear
to The Age that US military contingency plans
for East Timor include a massive deployment of
American troops, including marines, for peace
enforcement - as distinct from UN peacekeeping.

In June, US military officials in the Pacific told
Australian officials they were factoring Darwin
into their military plans and sought an
agreement to attach Australian military liaison
officers to a possible US peace-enforcement
mission. Australian officials said that would
require consideration by the Federal
Government, which rejected the request.

The Age has established that American military
officials told Australian counterparts that the US
Pacific command was willing to coordinate, as
one option, the deployment of 15,000 US
troops, including marines from Okinawa in
Japan and other nearby units.

The US officials made it clear that this
contingency would apply in an extreme
circumstance - quickly stopping large-scale
violence by Indonesian-backed militias.

They told Australia the peace-enforcement
contingency was based on an assumption that
the US would operate alone, but that Australia
would become involved in UN peacekeeping
later.

In a recent TV interview, Mr Downer
categorically denied a report in The Sunday Age
that Australia had rejected a US request to
jointly plan peacekeeping for East Timor, and
that the US had told Australia it would consider
sending marines.

``It's false. The story, it's completely false,'' Mr
Downer told Channel Nine's Sunday program on
1 August.

Yesterday, he told Parliament that neither he nor
the Defence Minister, Mr John Moore, were
aware of US requests for Australia to participate
in peace enforcement.

A spokesman for Mr Downer later said: ``There
has been no policy request from Washington to
participate in a peace enforcement mission to
East Timor. Of course, military planners do just
that - they plan for contingencies, but there has
been no official request or notification about a
plan.''

Mr Downer also told Parliament he rejected
suggestions - including a report in The Sunday
Age on 1 August - that Australia and the US had
recently diverged on the circumstances under
which peacekeepers should be sent to East
Timor.

He said that during a meeting between the
secretary of his department, Dr Ashton Calvert,
and the US Assistant Secretary of State, Mr
Stanley Roth, Mr Roth had been expressing
personal views rather than United States policy.

According to a record of the conversation in
Washington in February, which The Age has
obtained, ``One area of difference ... arose with
respect to our approaches concerning the
security dimension of East Timor's transition. ``

Roth's approach, which he admitted was a
personal view given that he had not yet
discussed it with Secretary (of State Madeleine)
Albright ... was that a full-scale peacekeeping
operation would be an unavoidable aspect of the
transition. Without it, East Timor was likely to
collapse.''

According to the record, ``Roth suggested that
Australia's position of keeping peacekeeping at
arm's length was essentially defeatist.''

On 1 August, Mr Downer denied there had been
differences between Australia and the US. He
said it was nonsense to suggest there had been
a standoff between Mr Roth and Dr Calvert.

On 2 August, the Department of Foreign Affairs
and Trade issued a statement, categorically
denying ``recent press reports of differences in
Australian and United States approaches'' to East
Timor.

In respect to the February meeting, the
statement said this was of ``historical rather
than current interest'' and ``it is wrong to say
that significant differences were exposed in the
policies of our two governments''.

The shadow foreign minister, Mr Laurie
Brereton, said: ``Foreign Minister Downer's
statements on East Timor have been riddled
with deceit ... for Mr Downer to say that there
was no significant difference of opinion was
deeply deceitful.''

He said Labor had learnt that a ``very
significant difference'' of opinion was expressed
at the meeting between Dr Calvert and Mr Roth

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"
 
DC:

I can't see it happening myself. Our mob are too gutless to get involved in anything approaching a shooting war (the politicians, not the military). They prefer to strut and preen themselves on the world stage, thinking they're "grown-up now" and can play with the big boys, when in fact Australia is a very minor world power.

Or, it could be like the "police" force we just sent up there -- they weren't allowed to take firearms with them in case they "provoked" the locals.

We turn our backs on massacres in Timor while we (metaphorically) get into bed with the Indonesians, even training their military officers down here, for heaven's sake!! And this for a country that shows Australia on its maps as "South Irian".

Give me strength.

B
 
From the Australian Broadcasting Commission (ABC), the National station:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newslink/daily/newsnat-11aug1999-22.htm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>US rules out troops for E Timor if violence

The United States has ruled out any large-scale commitment of troops to East Timor, should violence erupt prior to next month's referendum.

Washington says it is willing to participate in a UN peacekeeping force should East Timorese chose independence from Indonesia.

But the US has denied reports it is preparing to send as many as 15,000 troops to the territory.

The US says no intervention plans exist.

Pentagon spokesman Kenneth Bacon suggested the subject was never discussed.

"To the best of my knowledge, and I've checked into this, no such plan was discussed," he said.

Meanwhile, the UN has released a proposal for interim authority in East Timor prior to the Indonesian Parliament ratifying the outcome.

It would see a small increase in military and police liaison numbers, with Indonesia retaining responsibility for security.[/quote]

B
 

Big Bunny

New member
I feel that if "WE GO IN"... [colonial style], perhaps Ache, Irian Jaya etc should be propected from the Indo's Evil Empire as well? After all... one in - all in, eh?***I am afaid there is no political will here either to be involved,unless the USA says "jump" to little 'ol Oz then we do, US trade restrictions and subsidies, lamb tariffs or no lamb tariffs. Sad(for me - I live there) but true !

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***Big Bunny***
 

DC

Moderator Emeritus
Brought back to top since its now more than speculation

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!
 

Ipecac

New member
I love the phrase, "peacekeeping force". Does the gov't hold the patent on oxymorons? Military intelligience, mandatory volunteerism, income tax contribution, government expert, the list goes on.

So why aren't we bombing East Timor into submission? Are we turning over a new leaf? Or are we just (temporarily) out of "smart" bombs?

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"The right of self-defense is the first law of nature: in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest limits possible. Wherever standing armies are kept up, and when the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any color or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction." Henry St. George Tucker
 

George Hill

Staff Alumnus
I think we used all our SMART BOMBS on passanger trains...

I can see Klinton sending in some F-18 flights... But actual TROOPS on the ground? We don't have enough US MONEY in Timor to actually set foot there.



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"Supreme authority derives from a mandate from the masses. Not from some farsicle aquatic ceremony."

RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE
The Critic formerly known as Kodiac
 

Pthfndr

New member
Did hear on CNN tonight when I got home from work (about 6:30 pm pst) that Albright said even if the UN won't do any thing that the U.S. might still send in "peace keeping forces" if Indonesia can't control the situation.
 

DC

Moderator Emeritus
Pthfndr....

Yep, old Mad is at it again.

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!
 

Big Bunny

New member
Amazing how many gun-banners, do-gooders, UN-lovers and hoplophobes are now hysterically screaming for 2,000 young Diggers (with gunz hopefully !) to go from Darwin against 25,000 Indos to "save the East Timorese".

Sure OZ has let them down(er) again, but they they know so little of the asian mind and "face". The military (who actually run the country) can't allow to be seen to lose it. How can E.Timor survive economically without being part of Indonesia?
This trouble... which could be seen a mile off is supremely predictable.
But unless USA gives a lead or approval, I doubt the international effort will be enough to "save" anyone. Remember Somalia and Ruanda...

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***Big Bunny***
 
I guess we'll know the answer tomorrow (Thursday), as our "esteemed" (choke) Prime Minister has given the the Indons until then -- or else face the consequences.

What gets up my nostrils is that we have been training those same Indonesians in our army training schools for years!!

And there's a hell of a lot more of 'em than there are of us!!

B
 
The USA will offer only logistical support to any peace keeping force - Australia and New Zealand will send troops. The US was only being asked for several hundred troops not tens of thousands.
To say the US is being hypocritical is being kind, the East Timorese need the help or rather the threat of military action from large nations like the US.
Australia is at fault and more so because we recognised the annexation of East Timor and have even trained Indonesian Special Forces. Australia should be ashamed of what it's done in the past but America should be ashamed for ignoring this.
Hundreds of thousands of East Timorese died in WW2 helping the allies and this is how we treat them.
It's a pity East Timor wasn't in the desert and a major oil supplier.
Australia jumps when the US says so e.g Vietnam,Korea,Gulf War it would be only fair for some real support here.
 

left wing loony

New member
Hmm .. let's see :

Moral Responsibility

• Indonesia

To provide a safe and peaceful environment for the transition of East Timor from a colony to an independent nation

• Australia

To provide the same as above for the boo-boo they made when ex PM Hawke recognised Indonesia's annexation of East Timor

• USA

To provide at least token military support to their ANZUS ally for 50 years who asked them for help for the first time

• ASEAN

To pressure Indonesia to do the above (re: Indonesia) or be the epitome of double standards (eg. kill Serbs because they are killing our Muslim Kosovar brethren .. East Timor? screw em .. they are a bunch of Christian fakirs)

Did I miss out anyone?

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Simul Justus Et Peccator
 

DC

Moderator Emeritus
Just heard a blurb on the news....

Barney Frank is lobbying for US intervention...said that the moral and legal grounds are even higher than Kosovo was.
Yeah...and Kosovo accomplished alot huh?

These people never learn...gads

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!
 

Dennis

Staff Emeritus
DC,
Maybe they DO learn! Every time Clinton or his regime is in real trouble, we must send young Americans off to be killed.

And I'm waiting for the promised 3 massacres in October....
 

left wing loony

New member
A Little Background On East Timor

The eastern portion of Timor Island is populated by an ethnic group called Maubere. It was colonised by the Portuguese in the 16th century. Since then it has developed independently of the Dutch East Indies (present day Indonesia) and the majority of the population are Roman Catholics.

When Indonesia declared her independence in 1949, the territory of East Timor and West Papua (Irian Jaya today) was not incorporated within her territory. East Timor remained under Portuguese rule whereas West Papua remained as a Dutch colony (forcibly annexed by Indonesia in 1963).

In 1974, a military coup also know as the Captains' Revolution was instigated by military officers who opposed Portugal's policy toward its African territories. By early 1974 dissatisfaction with the debilitating, seemingly endless war in Africa, and with compulsory four-year military service, together with political suppression and a deteriorating economy, resulted in growing unrest and increased urban guerrilla activity within Portugal. Inspired by Gen. António de Spinola's popular book Portugal and the Future, an organized group of officers toppled Prime Minister Caetano's government, encountering a minimum of resistance from loyal forces and widespread acceptance from the people. As head of the ruling military junta, Spinola implemented a policy of decolonialization.

Meanwhile, in East Timor, due to distance and expense, was already the most forgotten colony, less attention it was given towards the definition of it's future as the longed changes in the metropolis didn't avoid internal deviations and contradictions. It brought instability to the government of the country and the urgence to lay the basis of democracy.

On November 28, 1975, East Timor declared her independence from Portugal and elected a government.

For Indonesia however, the solution was announced: annexation by any terms. , Indonesia invaded in December '75 after getting agreement from Henry Kissinger that the US will not intervene, interrupting a process of decolonization in course. The action was promptly condemned by the United Nations.

Since then, more than 200,000 Maubares have been killed or maimed by Indonesian authorities, mainly extra judicially.

On The East Timor Referendum (Aug 31st 1999)
--------------------------------------------

In April 1999, the Indonesian government agreed to hold a ballot in East Timor to let the people decide if they wanted to gain autonomy within Indonesia or outright independence. Nevertheless, the Indonesian military was systematically training and arming militia
groups from those who were opposed to independence.

The results announced 2 days ago showed an overwhelming support for independence (78.5% out of 99% eligible voters who voted). Since then, pro-Indonesia militias have been on a rampage, killing and herding away residents and foreigners, abetted by the Indonesian military and police.

Conclusion
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The fact that 200,000 people have been systematically butchered and killed (over 20% of the East Timorese population) cannot be something that we can just overlook and "pooh-pooh" away.

America has a moral obligation to right what they did wrong, that is to look to the other side when Indonesia forcibly invaded East Timor. Even then, Australia isn't asking America to send in the Marines, just requesting logistical support .. even if you don't care if an insignificant 3rd world nation is decimated, spare a thought for your military allies in the Pacific.

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"When you give food to the poor, they call you a saint. When you ask why the poor have no food, they call you a communist."
-Archbishop Helder Camara
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Simul Justus Et Peccator
 

left wing loony

New member
Just an addendum to my previous post :

If you think the Holocaust was bad .. you don't know nothing yet.

Remember, East Timor doesn't have 6 million of their number to be sacrificed on the altar of international indifference. Lop off 1 zero and they would have lost more than half of their population.

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Simul Justus Et Peccator
 

DC

Moderator Emeritus
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Indonesia invaded in December '75 after getting agreement from
Henry Kissinger that the US will not intervene[/quote]

This is the extent of America's moral wrongdoing? Hmmm....lessee here....no indication of American military support or arms for Indonesia. Massive negative world opinion for America's "little episode of butting into Vietnam's affairs" a few years and recent pullout. So, because America chose not to make the same mistake again, we are moral criminals? Wonder what the world would have said had we butted in? Damned if ya do, damned if ya don't.
Maybe its time for folks to do for themselves for a change....seems to me that the independent minded Timorese did nothing in the way of security training or arming....so how would they maintain their independence?

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!
 

left wing loony

New member
A US Congressional Inquiry was made in 1976 I believe whereby it was determined that 90% of the arms used by ABRI (the Indonesian Armed Forces) was provided by the US and that Indonesia broke it's agreement not to use US supplied arms for offensive purposes.

The CIA was also implicated as it was allegedly providing intel to ABRI regarding the locations of Fretilin forces.

Now is that complicity or what?

East Timor has a resistance group known as FALINTIL that has been opposing the Indonesian army for the last 25 years. They were made to sign a truce agreement prior to the Referendum and has yet to be officially remobilised as they fear it might complicate their efforts to gain international peacekeepers to oversee the transition from Indonesian colonisation to independence.

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Simul Justus Et Peccator
 

allanh

New member
I just want to ask a quick question... Where were the international peace keepers when America broke from england? When did everyone decide they have to protect everyone else? At some point people and countries have to take care of them selves.
 
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