Update on the Philly OC case - radio interview with the chief

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Jim March

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xnx2qzOsoq8

Particularly noteworthy: the chief says that not only will cops be checking the license status of OCers in Philly, but said chief has "no problem" with his cops doing so at gunpoint, with drawn weapons.

This is the first time I'm aware of a police chief advocating having his officers conduct felony assaults with no lawful provocation. This takes the problem to a whole new level.
 

zxcvbob

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I would love to see the PA state police or the FBI send some plain-clothes detectives to Philadelphia to walk around OC'ing (wearing body armor of course and having backup.) Wait to be assaulted at gunpoint by a cop, then arrest the cop for assorted felonies.

Yeah, I know how likely that is to happen. :(
 
I hope the victim's lawyer is up to speed on the SCOTUS ruling in Terry. From where I sit (outside the borders of PA), it certainly gives every appearance that the City of Brotherly Love must have very deep pockets and is looking for reasons to spread the wealth around amongst the populace.

Where some act is specifically legal, engaging in that act cannot ... absent other factors ... possibly be construed as providing any "clearly articulable facts" to support a reasonable suspicion that a crime is being committed. What's the crime, "Suspicion of Engaging in Lawful Activity"?
 

Glenn Dee

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Again... back to tactics. I also dont have a problem with an officer covering a subject while inquiering about his license. This can be done fairly descretely, and without notice or embarassment to either party. Also the Officers experience, and judgment should play a large part in the interaction.

I dont think the Police Chief was instructing his Officers to threaten or assault anyone. He just made the point that the Officers will have their own safety formost in their minds. And that some Officers may choose to gun up when investigating an openly armed person. I'm sure there is some statutory exemption for police on duty, acting persuant to their duties and pointing a firearm from assault charges.
 

Standing Wolf

Member in memoriam
He just made the point that the Officers will have their own safety formost in their minds. And that some Officers may choose to gun up when investigating an openly armed person.

Okay. I give up. How many open carriers turn out to be criminals in the U.S.A. per year?
 

csmsss

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He just made the point that the Officers will have their own safety formost in their minds. And that some Officers may choose to gun up when investigating an openly armed person. I'm sure there is some statutory exemption for police on duty, acting persuant to their duties and pointing a firearm from assault charges.
You see, this is the heart of the problem right there. If your foremost priority is your own personal safety, then you have no business being a police officer. You don't take an oath to protect your own safety, you take an oath to serve and protect the public and to enforce the law. Your own personal safety is supposed to be secondary.

Instead of protecting public safety, these officers will be creating dangerous situations and putting others' lives in danger. Ridiculous.
 

raimius

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So, Glenn Dee, why are you OK with LEOs drawing down on citizens who give no indication of having committed a crime? Would you be OK if a LEO drew on you during a traffic stop?

Personally, I like more than 5lbs of force separating me from getting shot for nothing!
 
Glenn Dee said:
Again... back to tactics. I also dont have a problem with an officer covering a subject while inquiering about his license. This can be done fairly descretely, and without notice or embarassment to either party. Also the Officers experience, and judgment should play a large part in the interaction.

I dont think the Police Chief was instructing his Officers to threaten or assault anyone. He just made the point that the Officers will have their own safety formost in their minds. And that some Officers may choose to gun up when investigating an openly armed person. I'm sure there is some statutory exemption for police on duty, acting persuant to their duties and pointing a firearm from assault charges.
No, Glenn - You go back to basics. The basic, fundamental fact is, open carry is LEGAL in Philadelphia if you have a license. Just like driving a car is LEGAL in Philadelphia if yoiu have a license. A police officer has no more right to accost a person openly carrying a gun than he does to stop any car at random to ask the driver if he has a driver's license.

The case was Terry v. Ohio decided by the Supreme Court on 1968. That's FORTY years ago, and the police still don't get it. Here's the link -- I suggest you read it, since you don't seem to get it, either.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0392_0001_ZS.html

It's a lengthy decision, which you have to read in full (not just the syllabus, which is actually slightly misleading) to understand how it applies here. I'm only going to quote portions:\

...

It is quite plain that the Fourth Amendment governs "seizures" of the person which do not eventuate in a trip to the stationhouse and prosecution for crime -- "arrests" in traditional terminology. It must be recognized that, whenever a police officer accosts an individual and restrains his freedom to walk away, he has "seized" that person. And it is nothing less than sheer torture of the English language to suggest that a careful exploration of the outer surfaces of a person's clothing all over his or her body in an attempt to find weapons is not a "search." Moreover, it is simply fantastic to urge that such a procedure [p17] performed in public by a policeman while the citizen stands helpless, perhaps facing a wall with his hands raised, is a "petty indignity." [n13] It is a serious intrusion upon the sanctity of the person, which may inflict great indignity and arouse strong resentment, and it is not to be undertaken lightly.

...

In this case, there can be no question, then, that Officer McFadden "seized" petitioner and subjected him to a "search" when he took hold of him and patted down the outer surfaces of his clothing. We must decide whether, at that point, it was reasonable for Officer McFadden to have interfered with petitioner's personal security as he did. [n16] And, in determining whether the seizure and search were "unreasonable," our inquiry [p20] is a dual one -- whether the officer's action was justified at its inception, and whether it was reasonably related in scope to the circumstances which justified the interference in the first place.

...

Nonetheless, the notions which underlie both the warrant procedure and the requirement of probable cause remain fully relevant in this context. In order to assess the reasonableness of Officer McFadden's conduct as a general proposition, it is necessary "first to focus upon [p21] the governmental interest which allegedly justifies official intrusion upon the constitutionally protected interests of the private citizen," for there is

no ready test for determining reasonableness other than by balancing the need to search [or seize] against the invasion which the search [or seizure] entails.​

...

The scheme of the Fourth Amendment becomes meaningful only when it is assured that, at some point, the conduct of those charged with enforcing the laws can be subjected to the more detached, neutral scrutiny of a judge who must evaluate the reasonableness of a particular search or seizure in light of the particular circumstances. [n19] And, in making that assessment, it is imperative that the facts be judged against an objective standard: would the facts [p22] available to the officer at the moment of the seizure or the search "warrant a man of reasonable caution in the belief" that the action taken was appropriate? Cf. Carroll v. United States, 267 U.S. 132 (1925); Beck v. Ohio, 379 U.S. 89, 96-97 (1964). [n20] Anything less would invite intrusions upon constitutionally guaranteed rights based on nothing more substantial than inarticulate hunches, a result this Court has consistently refused to sanction. See, e.g., Beck v. Ohio, supra; Rios v. United States, 364 U.S. 253 (1960); Henry v. United States, 361 U.S. 98 (1959). And simple

"good faith on the part of the arresting officer is not enough." . . . If subjective good faith alone were the test, the protections of the Fourth Amendment would evaporate, and the people would be "secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects," only in the discretion of the police.

...

We merely hold today that, where a police officer observes unusual conduct which leads him reasonably to conclude in light of his experience that criminal activity may be afoot and that the persons with whom he is dealing may be armed and presently dangerous, where, in the course of investigating this behavior, he identifies himself as a policeman and makes reasonable inquiries, and where nothing in the initial stages of the encounter serves to dispel his reasonable fear for his own or others' safety, he is entitled for the protection of himself and others in the area to conduct a carefully limited search of the outer clothing of such persons in an attempt to discover weapons which might be used to assault him. [p31] Such a search is a reasonable search under the Fourth Amendment, and any weapons seized may properly be introduced in evidence against the person from whom they were taken.
It is important to remember that Terry was about three men who were frisked for concealed weapons because the police officer thought they were casing a store to rob. So the officer's claim was a "reasonable belief" that a crime was about to be committed. But the three men were acting suspiciously, and were observed doing so over a prolonged period of time. In the recent Philadelphia case, how can there be anything indicative of a crime being committed or about to be committed by the simple act of engaging in an action that is expressly allowed by the law?

In Terry the SCOTUS ruled that the stop and frisk were legal because the officer was able to state the specific facts that supported his belief that a crime was about to be committeed.

What's the argument in the Philadelphia case? What "clearly articulable facts" can possibly be cited by the officer to support his contention that he believed a crime was being committed? His own department had a directive in place STATING that open carry is legal. When the guy tried to tell him that, the cop told him to shut up, and he called for backup.

IMHO the cop CLEARLY blew it. Officer safety can apply only AFTER it has been established that the officer has a right to approach an individual. In this case, there was simply nothing to provide the officer any right or authority or excuse to approach the young man, and CERTAINLY not to do so with his gun drawn.
 

jimpeel

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Outside of the fact that Fiorino seems to be an activist looking for an altercation, the SCotUS has ruled that a person may not be held suspect for the mere exercise of their constitutional rights.

All he had to do in the original event was to simply do as he was instructed. Instead, he stood his ground with an irate, nervous cop -- who was ignorant of the law he is paid to enforce -- holding center mass and argued. All it would have taken was a few thousandths of an inch of trigger creep and we would be posting about Fiorino's untimely death.

I believe in my heart of hearts that the city is looking to make an example of Fiorino; but I believe just as strongly that he placed himself in that position willingly and deliberately.

A simple question of any cop would be "Are you at all familiar with any armed criminal or gangbanger who would openly carry a firearm; or would that individual be far more likely to conceal said firearm?" I believe that the answer would be a resounding "No" and "Yes" respectively to that multi-part question.

Even in the event that a criminal or gangbanger were to carry a firearm openly it would likely not be in a rig.

I am a bit torn on this one as I see the point of Fiorino and I see the point of the PD. The citizenry should expect that those who are paid to enforce the laws should be more knowledgeable than those for whom they enforce them. As with any profession, the customer should not be more knowledgeable of the product than the seller. The same goes for law enforcement.
 

Glenn Dee

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LOL!!! OK One at a time...

Standing Wolf... Most probably no Licensed open carriers have been found out to be criminals. But the Police dont know that until they check. Right? And the police do have the right to check... dont they?

csmsss... Be realistic. Police Officers have every right, and responsibility to consider their own safety before anything else. Police Officers dont swear an oath to die, or be injured. Sure thats a distinct possibility but it's not in their job discription. While they may swear an oath top protect you... They dont swear an oath to allow you or anyone else to injure them.

Ramius... First off, Yes I have been drawn down on by the police... In fact several times. No I didnt like it, but I do understand the why of it. I'm not suggesting that police draw and threaten citizens with their firearms... In fact I think thats the wrong way to handle these similar situations. However I can accept an officer descretely covering the subject until he's satisfied the subject is legal in his actions.

Aguila Blanca... It seem's you've missed the tenor of my post. I'm not at all suggesting that open carry isnt legal in Philadelphia. Correct me if I'm wrong... but I believe one must posses a license to carry a firearm in order to open carry correct? How would a police officer know if an individual is properly licensed if he dont inquire? OK... when the officer inquires about the license the possibility exists that the open carrier dont have a license... right? But the officer wont know this until he checks... right?

Now I'm suggesting that officers making an inquiery into the status of an open carrier has a duty, and responsibility to consider his own safety. Based on the officers OWN PERSEPTIONS he MAY, or MAY NOT elect to access his own firearm to some degree. After all he's questioning an individual armed with a deadly weapon.

The jist of my post is the tactics used at this point is the huge difference between a pleasant interaction between police and citizen, and the fiasco that started this conversation. My point is the police need to consider their tactics in similar situations. I suggest that the most common tactics (TV tactics) used in armed confrontations may need to be revisited.

I really hope this post helps everyone better understand my logic. I'm not knocking open carry. In fact I'm a personal fan of the ability to open carry at will. I'm not suggesting that the Police harass open carriers, or that they treat open carriers like criminals. I only think they need to review their tactics when investigating a possible open carry situation.
 

wally626

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Glenn Dee Wrote:
Standing Wolf... Most probably no Licensed open carriers have been found out to be criminals. But the Police dont know that until they check. Right? And the police do have the right to check... dont they?

No the police do not have an unrestricted right to ask for a permit, they have to have a valid reason to do so. The simple fact of openly carrying a gun in public (in a state or city that allows open carry) is not a reason. The state could pass a law giving the police permission to ask, like the California laws that allow them to check to see if an open carried weapon is loaded or not, but I do not believe PA has such a law.
 

geetarman

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but I believe one must posses a license to carry a firearm in order to open carry correct? How would a police officer know if an individual is properly licensed if he dont inquire? OK... when the officer inquires about the license the possibility exists that the open carrier dont have a license... right? But the officer wont know this until he checks... right?

Substitute the word "car" for "gun/firearm."

You would not sit still for the police stopping you for no reason to see if you had a valid license to drive would you? There would need to be another reason.

If OC is LEGAL, the police should NOT be stopping you to check for legality.

There would need to be another reason for the stop. Are you going to stop someone open carrying because they are brown or black? Is that enough reason?

I think the police need to rethink their position and OBEY the law, not make it up on the fly.

Geetarman:(
 

MLeake

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Glenn Dee, the problem I have with your position is this: the police in such situations are conducting what is effectively an administrative check. Drawing a gun for such a thing is ridiculous, lacking other indicators that it is necessary than the mere presence of a weapon.

jimpeel, if Fiorino was looking for a confrontation, so what? If so, he got it without doing anything illegal or deceptive. The PPD officer was entirely in the wrong, although his administration's politics probably had something to do with his mindset.

By your logic, marchers in Birmingham were looking to get bitten by police dogs, and should have gone home meekly when so ordered by Bull Connor.

Edit: thinking about it, I realized an ironic difference - the freedom marchers were breaking the (unjust) existing law of the city and state; Fiorino broke no law.
 
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bigbaby

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Glenn D is right! I ain't exactly the type who has much reason to support the cops, but Glen said it well. To the dude who asked about a weapon drawn during a traffic stop LOLOLOLOLOL I have never been pulled over any other way at night in Baltimore; maybe it's because I'm big and black, but I doubt it.
 

Jim March

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If I pull a gun on somebody, that's assault with a deadly weapon, a felony.

Do any of you actually think a cop can commit that class of felony when nobody else can, in a situation where they have no reason to think somebody is a violent criminal?

Seriously?
 

Eghad

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There are only seven states that prohibit open carry in the United States and plenty od states where the police do not see it this way.

Why is it that in the city of Philedelphia it seems to be a problem for a person to excercise the right of open carry. Its the law.
 

Patriot86

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It sounds to me like the Philly PD Chief is going out of his way to harass lawful gun owners and expose them to undue excessive force.I might speculate that this is out of some total inability to stop unlawful gun owners(gang banger types) from making that city a cesspool. I hope someone files a lawsuit and wins BIG and teaches that hellhole of a city a lesson.

Seriously, does he REALLY think that any of the hundreds or thousands of gang bangers (primarily the ones committing the crimes) will ACTUALLY open carry?
 
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I'm going to flat out say this, and leave it for people to think what they want.

It's not cop bashing, it's documented fact, and goes to the culture of the Philadelphia PD.

The Philadelphia Police Department has a long and checkered past concerning abuse of citizens.

When Frank Rizzo was police commissioner (and later mayor) the city developed a less than sterling reputation, to the point that he and a number of police officers and officials were later charged by the Federal government with either participating in or condoning acts of violence and brutality.

Rizzo also had a reputation of being a "take no prisoners skull cracker" when he he was an officer coming up through the ranks in the Philly PD.

Numerous retired/separated officers over the years have said that the culture of the Philly PD has, and in many cases continues, to condone and look the other way when it comes to heavy handed officers.

The situation in Philadelphia was so widely known that it showed up as fodder in a number of sitcoms, including Barney Miller.

Supposedly the culture is slowly changing, but the emphasis is on slowly, as there are still quite a few officers and officials employed by the Philly PD who came up under, or during, Rizzo.

If you grew up in Pennsylvania during the 1970s and 1980s, you got used to seeing reports in state newspapers about the Philly PD, virtually none of them good.
 
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