Up tight

Quickie questions.
1. When one seat a bullet as close as possible to the barrels rifling. Does doing so cause excessive (entrance) bore erosion?

2. If so. How much barrel life would be lost with a constant diet of that type of ammo?

3. Is there a powder reduction % factor to consider when building such tight tolerance ammo so's to help reduce said bore erosion?

Thanks commenting and elightment.:)
 

loademwell

New member
Don't have any first hand knowledge on this, but I did read something about it back in the day....
It was said that; if you can seat the bullet to touch the rifelings it will improve you pattern and LESS wear and tare on the barrel. (It supposedly makes the barrel vibrate less)
The %? I have no idea....
 

F. Guffey

New member
Up tight

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Quickie questions.
1. When one seat a bullet as close as possible to the barrels rifling. Does doing so cause excessive (entrance) bore erosion?

There was a belief hot high pressure metal cutting gas did not pass the bullet, slow motion/high speed cameras show gas leaving the barrel before the bullet. 100 + years ago a photographer took a picture for art sake, later ordinance saw the picture after the photographer won an award, after examining the picture they had to rethink everything they thought they knew.

Hot high pressure metal cutting gas passes the bullet, I am the fan of the running start, I want my bullet to have the jump. I will not seat a bullet to the lands to reduce the amount of gas passing the bullet, I will not jam a bullet into the lands to reduce the amount of gas passing the bullet. I want my bullets past the rifling before my bullets know the rifling is there.

The secondary spike is OK as long as I do not have a .323 bullet in a 30/06 chamber.

F. Guffey
 

F. Guffey

New member
3. Is there a powder reduction % factor to consider when building such tight tolerance ammo so's to help reduce said bore erosion?

Powder reduction with the bullet setting at or jammed into the rifling is more about lowering pressure. I do not like the ideal of the bullet setting at the lands trying to make up its mind if it is going to move. Again, I am the fan of the running start.

F. Guffey
 

LE-28

New member
Question 1:
It definitely can with the magnum calibers being the first to go. Increasing the pressure increases the temperature of the gas, the hotter it gets the faster it cuts.

2. that depends on the caliber. A 30-30 would last a long time, a .264 Win Mag maybe only a thousand rounds and you would have to swap barrels.

3. Not really, you have to go to minimum load and start working up watching the pressure signs. They will be a completely different pressure curve by not giving the bullet a head start to break inertia before hitting all the resistance of the rifling.
In one of my 30-06s I found that max load for it with the bullet at the rifling was only 54 gr (almost minimum) of IMR 4350 with 165 gr Sierra Match Kings, with 58-60gr. being the normal book max, depending on the book. I backed it up .005"and the felt recoil was much less in that particular case. 4 gr is a heavy reduction and because of it I lost a lot of velocity. If you are long range shooting this could become counter-intuitive.
My minimum is .005", I won't jam one into the rifling either any more.
 

JeepHammer

Moderator
Mr. Guffey is on the right track...

From a Physics & Metallurgy prospective,
The bullet nose in contact with the 'Throat' (Forcing Cone Funnel) *SHOULD*, in THEORY,
Put a softer metal against a hard steel, AS PRESSURE RISES...

In this situation, with bullet in contact with the Throat,
The PRESSURE will have to spike to get that bullet moving.
There is no inertia or momentum from the bullet (Projectile) to help force it along into the barrel.

Now, remember!,
That bullet isn't just getting forced into rifling,
It's going to become LONGER, since there is mass being displaced by the rifling,
And the bullet is actually bigger in diameter than the 'Grooves' of the bore...

When you compress the sides of the bullet, it MUST grow longer, the only direction left for it to move.
Not only is the MAXIMUM diameter of the barrel SMALLER than the diameter of the bullet,
But you have Rifling crushing in on the bullet,
And that mass has to go somewhere since two solids can't occupy the same space at the same time...

When the bullet is a 'Plug' in the bore, the pressure blows out the cartridge case neck, you get pressure on the back of the bullet,
AND all around the outside of the bullet at the same time...

The bullet is 'Die Sized' by the barrel.
Completely an act of pressure, so the pressure has to BUILD & SPIKE until the bullet starts to move down the barrel.

------

With LONG FREEBORE, the bullet gets a free pass, room to get up some momentum before it's forced into that funnel.

Momentum helps you out with getting the bullet elongated enough to fit into the rifling.

In a GLANCING blow between Copper/Lead & Steel,
Steel wins.

The steel is still going to have to deal with IMPACT compression, but the 'Gas Jetting' effect shouldn't be as serious...

So it's 6 one way, half dozen the other,
The throat compacts from impact, or it's gas jetted from pressure buildup/live burning powder escaping around the rifling grooves before the bullet starts to move...

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This is PERSONAL OBSERVATION,
Not exactly 'Scientific Proof'...
But observation of the after effects.

I recommended seating a bullet LONG in the case, crimping it into place, then inserting it into the chamber.
Turn the bullet about 1/8 turn back and forth.

This will show you the erosion in the throat without a high resolution, magnified bore scope.
The 'High Spots' will rub the bullet nose, the low spots won't.

This will give you an idea of the erosion pattern,
Even, or UN-Even.

My observations from a magnified bore scope,


Impact compression of the metal will usually be EVEN.
The free bore will simply get LONGER, but concentric and even.
If there is gas jetting, the impact compression of the layers of steel is doing a good job of keeping uneven erosion to a minimum.

My bolt .308s that I set long and let the bullet rest on the throat erode more unevenly, and they show 'Rivulets' that I *ASSUME* are gas jetting patterns...

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Now, this is a hobby,
I can't have a chamber/barrel stub made of pressure/temperature sensors,
No could I afford the super fast computer to make sense of the test data and model what's actually happening.

This is OBSERVATION DATA POINTS, not a clear picture of what's happening...

I shot .300 Weatherby for many years, the freebore is excessive by anyone's standards,
And the throat eroded very evenly in good quality barrels.

I've shot .30 cal rifles a ton, mostly all my life, and most of the barrels are still around here in one form or another...
When I got interested in this same question, I started having a look with the bore scope...

The tight chambered turn bolts all had uneven erosion,
And were exceptionally eroded in the rifling grooves.
While the long freebore semi-autos usually had a pretty even erosion, the entire throat got pounded forward.

This left me with a lot of head scratching,
And asking a TON of questions, reading everything I could find,
One old steel engineer gave me a clue about the excessive pressure built up in the chamber before the bullet starts to move,
And it's a basic principal of physics I overlooked for YEARS,

As pressure increases, so does the HEAT.
It's not the pressure that forms the bullet into the barrel,
It's the HEAT the pressure/compaction process produces.
Compress ANYTHING and it will heat up, raise that compression/heat enough, and ANY SUBSTANCE will first become plastic, then liquid, then vaporize...

VERY TINY amounts of copper introduced into a super heated plasma stream will blast through ANY steel...

Made me wonder if the heat/pressure was carrying copper/copper ions off the bullet jacket, or out of the cartridge case into the rifling and jetting the rifling away.
The bullet jacket would be protecting the rifling ends, and that would explain why the rifling wasn't getting 'Jetting' while the lands were...

When a bullet gets a run at the rifling,
The pressure doesn't spike as much, less pressure,
The copper jacket hits the entire rifling and wicks the heat away, plus acts as a physical shield to the jetting effect.

It's one THEORY, based on observation, and may be all wet from something I'm missing...
But the FACTS fit.
 
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JeepHammer

Moderator
Something else the old ordnance steel engineer told me,

Metals in the powders.
A lot of powders have metals added, some as stabilizing agents, some as heat/pressure producers, some as incendiary agents to keep the powder burning under tremendous pressure.
Magnesium, Iron & Aluminum were common back in his day...

The metals were added to large guns to control the burn, instead of fizzles or detonations, keep the powder burning at a constant rate...

The burn rate of the powder, through heat, determines pressure,
'Faster' powders burn at a faster rate to produce more pressure sooner through heat expansion of the gasses.

Powders with trace Iron as the incendiary control agent wouldn't gas jet like something with magnesium or aluminum...

I've often wondered which metal was added to what powder, and what the jetting effect of that metal would be?

My end of it, I know you use 'Super Hot' powders for 'Magnum' loads,
While you use slower burning powders for older caliber rifles to control chamber pressures and not blow them up...

Is it the pounding the throat takes on modern 'Magnum' bullets slamming the throat at high velocity?
Is it the powder gas jetting the throat away?
Is it the liquification/plasticizing of the copper jacket cutting as it compresses?

Is it all the above?

Copper is a VERY good cutting agent when it comes to steel, shape charges cut through tank armor with a copper jet, and they do it quite well,
Are we seeing some of that when the pressure/heat gets high enough?

MORE QUESTIONS!...
 
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