Unusual conversation

[4thHorseman]

I got into an unusual conversation at work the other night with a liberal co-worker.
It went something like this..... I conseal carry to protect myself and family.
He asked if his family members were being shot or gunned down would I pull my weapon and save there lives? I thought about it for a while and I said, "probably not". He became furious.
He does not carry because he feels it's wrong, but it would be wrong not for me defend HIS family.
Well after giving it some more thought, I thought to my self,"Would I expect anything different?" Probably not.
Sometimes though, I'm totally baffled at their ideas.

 

[45King]

My brother's keeper....

Could you live with yourself knowing you had the power to prevent an assault/murder, and chose not to use it? I think I'd be pretty upset with your answer, too.

CCW makes us into a sort of "free police force." Personally, I believe I have an obligation to look after my fellow man, not just limited to my family. It's part of the responsibility that comes with going armed.

 

[1911A1 fan]

Let's look at it this way.

45 King I'm sure that 4th would not let his co-workers family get gunned down and not help if he could! But then it might have been the best answer he could have given his co-worker. It could very well make him think of his duty to protect himself and his own family! Don't get me wrong, we that do carry have a moral responsibility to defend others if we can, but this slap in the face could very well be what this man needed.

 

[Kharn]

A better answer would have been "What if the roles were reversed? Would you carry a gun and use it to defend my family?"

Kharn

 

[mussi]

If I didn't, carrying a gun would be pretty pointless.

Or in another way, if I hadn't prevented a murder, robbery or rape in progress, I'd probably never be able to carry again, out of self-perceived moral guilt.

 

[Dennis]

4th Horseman,

I don't know you, but I know many people who carry.

Regardless of what we (you and I) believe, we probably would react according to our training when presented with imminent danger.

Before I read your answer to Mr. Liberal, my answer came to mind.

"I might help you, I don't know. But my first responsibility would be to my family and to myself - just as yours is."

If given time, I would have explained that I am neither John Wayne nor the 7th Cavalry - let alone a commissioned peace officer. Therefore, both my powers and my responsibilities have limits. I simply can not be everything to everyone.
-----

Obviously it's a bit presumptious of me to put words in your mouth - and I don't mean to do so - but I believe your decision to help or not would be determined by previous training, your previous "what if" exercises, and the conditions at hand.

Still, If I am alone, I would be more likely to intervene for a friend than if I had my granddaughter with me. I perceive my "job" to be keeping her alive - to do that, *I* must live.

As always, totality of the circumstances is the major concept for those of us who go forth armed.

 

[Mikul]

Think about the legal disaster you are looking to put yourself and your familty through if you shoot to protect this poor excuse for a man's family.

Perhaps a good reply would have been, "Will you pay the $10,000 in lawyers fees I would need to defend myself as well as pay the potential civil judgement that the criminal's family is likely to bring against me?"

Then again, how about, "A good man will defend the weak and helpless. A coward lets other people do it for him."

 

[DaiBando]

I have seen this discussed on other boards, and the one telling (if hard-hearted) argument for not interfering went like this:

"You had the same chance to acquire a CCW as I did. I chose to expend time, effort and money to acquire one to protect me and mine. You did not. Why should I risk my life/wealth/job to fulfil a duty you shirked?"

As pointed out above, if you interfere, you are opening up yourself to horrendous legal costs - and I'll bet the guy you save will not contribute one cent to help you.

In a real life situation, all this common sense would probably go by the board as your own humanity kicked in.

Still, it would be a great reply to that bozo.

 

[MeekAndMild]

4th Horseman raises one of the age old questions about the difference between a conservative and a liberal.

A conservative says "no" but when the chips are down he does what is right and tries to help.

A liberal makes a big fuss about saying "yes", telling in great details all the wonderful things he will do for you, but when TSHTF he is nowhere to be seen.

 

[Bam Bam]

I am with Kharn, Mikul, D., and Dennis

Why risk jail or worse for the family of a guy who shirks his responsibility to them himself? This falls in the category of 'no good deed goes unpunished.' Additionally, if he follows typical liberal thinking and is an 'anti' then he qualifies as a parasite. You do the work, he gets the free ride. Hell yeah, I would watch 'em die and not lift a finger. Intellectual consistency demands that they pay the ultimate homage to sincerity: dying for his/their beliefs. Alpha Michael Foxtrot.

Well, maybe I would help, on the grounds that perpetrators who are 'permenantly-deterred' cannot become repeat offenders.

 

[Nanaimo Barr]

when I took my CCW course this question came up.. the instructor related a story that happened to one of his instructors when said instructor was young...

guy was walking along beside a park at night, saw what looked like a rape in progress.., drew and "interupted" the rape...

it was a guy and his girlfriend acting out HER fantasy.....

they were NOT pleased to end up on the wrong end of a 1911.

he learned his lesson.. (call the police first)

things arn't always what they seem, (ask any cop), but to the "liberal", give him your lawyers card and tell him to call the lawyer and ask him how much it would cost you to defend yourself from a clear cut rightous shoot..

 

[Art Eatman]

The odds are that I would do something to save such a cretin from deadly threat. But that's not the point.

To me, the point is to get his attention, and I think that, "No, why should I?" puts the iggy on him. Makes him (eventually) think about such things as the responsibility we speak of so often at TFL. This kind of comment is a good lead-in for a serious discussion.

How goes a (I hope) calm and rational discussion is strictly up to you...Pointing out the probable legal cost of even a "good" shoot should be part of the deal.

Art

 

[Zander]

Sometimes though, I'm totally baffled at their ideas.

I'm not anymore...and haven't been for a long time.

Your liberal co-worker is a freeloader, thinking that it's beneath his dignity to personally defend himself or his family, but is an "obligation" for those who choose to exercise their RKBA.

He thinks no more of you than he does the rookie LEO whom he pays a pittance through his tax dollars to do the "dirty work" which he hasn't the personal responsiblity or courage to do himself.

Keep in mind that it's evidence of a mental illness on his part and forget it.

 

[labgrade]

Download, copy & give to yer liberal co-worker A Nation of Cowards.

Should help further the "discussion."

 

[B Shipley]

Remind him even the POLICE aren't obligated to do that for him and his family.

 

[AnotherPundit]

Well, thing is, I'd like to think I'd act to save someone else I didn't know and/or didn't particularly care for, but --

Reality is, taking that kind of action is an absolute last resort, and carries heavy consequences -- even a successful defense could end up involving you in years of legal battles, and that's a best-case scenario (in a worst-case, you don't have to worry about legal battles, or anything else.) Am I going to take that kind of risk for a complete stranger? Probably not. I'd like to think I would, though.

 

[westex]

I've thought about this long and hard many times and finally decided the best thing to do would be to shout, "Do you have your CHL?". If answered in the affirmative I would say "I'm here to help you brother, let's roll". If the answer was in the negative I would say, "Call me when you do".

 

[MatthewM]

Has anyone considered that this guy might be ACTIVELY lobbying to get all of our RKBA removed?

My moral core MIGHT drive me to help, buy I'd fight it real hard and try to just dial 911 for him.

(I have a neighbor who had a "ban gun stores here" type sign in re a new ordnance which passed)

 

[45King]

I AM my brother's keeper.....

I've seen a lot of reference to the possible legal consequences of helping someone else, but everyone seems to forget that one can face the same consequences in a pure "self" defense situation.

For me, it's a very black and white issue-it is morally and legally wrong to assault another, and if I see it happening, I will do whatever I can to stop it. To allow it to happen while I have the power and ability to stop it is a sin of omission, and puts me in league with the attackers. By my non-interference, I help them accomplish this goal.

I can't live with that.

I'm far more concerned about the consequences to my soul and my own self-perception than I am to my body. I refuse to be a part of evil, no matter what it may cost me.

 

[4thHorseman]

It would be a very tough decission after thinking about it more. As you all mentioned, my first responsibilty is to my family and myself. Get them out of harms way. All of you have excellent points both pro and con. That even makes it tougher to decide. This is the same guy when asked if he would post a "No Firearms in This House" sign in his front window he said, "No, that's an invitation for some one to rob me." But he denounces the right to bear arms and says it's only a state's right. You all know and have met this kind of person at one time or another. Even though my gut feeling is to help this guy or his family, I have resevations about it still.
I think I'll ignore him from now on as I've done in the past. I hope I never have to make that decission with him. I do think I would intervene with an unknown stranger, without hesitation though.