Underwood Ammo - Wear and Tear?

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Cosmodragoon

New member
I've never used anything from Underwood but it looks like they load things appreciably hotter. For instance, they've got the same Lehigh bullets loaded a few hundred feet per second hotter than Lehigh loads them. (The same 140-grain .357 magnum bullet is listed at 1250 fps from Lehigh and 1550 from Underwood. The same 140-grain 10mm bullet is listed at 1200 fps from Lehigh and 1500 fps from Underwood. Etc...)

I've read that average factory loads in some calibers are normally loaded on the weak side, and that being on the hot side but still within spec is okay. Still, I'd imagine this puts more wear and tear on the average gun. The question is: how much? If I'm going to carry a particular brand, I'm going to shoot it enough to be used to it. Will that necessitate stronger recoil springs? Is there anything else I need to know about here?

Thanks in advance!
 
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RickB

New member
If full-power loads won't get it done, get a bigger gun.
The original .357 Magnum load was a 158gr bullet at 1500fps, but that was from an 8.75" barrel, and most people are going to be shooting guns with 4"-6" barrels.
The original 10mm load was 200@1200, and that was hotter than what was intended, so I don't exceed that.
I've never heard of a 140gr bullet in either .357 or 10mm, but if one company is loading them considerably hotter, I wouldn't assume that the slower one is "weak".
 
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Jim Watson

New member
A cop here had occasion to shoot a felon with a 140 gr Speer .357, not an unknown load.

A 158 at 1250 is about what the majors want to load .357 to.
Underwood and Buffalo Bore load heavier. Are they within SAAMI?
 
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rock185

New member
Hello Cosmo. I have used, and chronographed, CorBon, Underwood, Buffalo Bore, along with the standard pressure, +P, +P+ loaded by Winchester, Remington, Federal,etc. Since you mention .357, I'll share that the most energetic factory 357 ammo I've ever used is the Buffalo Bore 180 grain LFNGC advertised at 1400 FPS. It really does that, and in fact slightly exceeded 1500 FPS in one of my 5.5" barreled revolvers. I shot it S&W K-frame, L-frame and N-frame revolvers, along with a Ruger Bisley. I would not care to shoot this ammo, or equivalent reloads, in a J-frame Smith or Ruger SP-101. Not because the revolver would come apart, but my bum wrist might. Don't think I care to shoot a regular diet of it in the K-frame S&W either. But in the L-frame, N-frame or Ruger I would not be concerned about using all the Buffalo Bore or similar I could afford and cared to shoot.
I've not used 140 grain in 10MM, but the 135 grain CorBon averaged 1475 fps in a 5" semi-auto and 1585 fps in a S&W model 610 revolver with 5" barrel. I'd estimate that 140 at 1500 is safely doable for a 140 in 10MM.


In semi-autos, I have sometimes installed heavier recoil springs and/or buffers in anticipation of using warmer ammo. I have never detected any damage or increased wear in semi-autos in using any of the more powerful ammo in .45 ACP, 10MM, 38 Super or 9MM calibers. The only gun I've ever been able to actually wear out was my early (1972) S&W .357 Model 66. I used the old gun on duty, trained with it, qualified with it, used it recreationally off duty,etc. Thousands of rounds of mostly Magnum ammunition. Sent it back to S&W and had everything except the frame replaced. Didn't shoot it that much after S&W overhauled it and still have and occasionally shoot it still. Still looks and shoots about as well as it did when new.
PS, Speer and Hornady did produce 140 grain .357 bullets for reloading. Seems like there is, or was, some factory 140 grain 357 available too.....
 

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45_auto

New member
cosmodragoon said:
Still, I'd imagine this puts more wear and tear on the average gun.
Click to expand...

More power = more wear and tear on anything made by man.

Want to never have to worry about wearing out your gun? Easy enough, don't shoot it!

The cost of enough ammo to wear out any modern gun will be MANY times the cost of the gun. If you shoot enough to wear out a gun, you can afford a replacement gun.
 
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random guy

New member
Some pistols are obviously built stouter than others and some will shrug off more of a beating than others. Still, REALLY hot ammo is bound to exact a toll. Whether you will ever fire enough rounds for it to be a problem is a different matter.

Underwood and several others load 9mm 115gr +P+ ammo that is 100 fps faster than my best handloads, which I consider plenty hot. I do not know how they get these velocities. And I sure would not want to shoot a lot of them in any semi-auto.

Not strictly because of wear and tear either. The best SD bullets are made to perform at "normal" velocities. Some have a wider window than others but generally beyond a certain point, you are causing extreme expansion (or even blowup) and shallow penetration. One justification for extra high velocity would be firing at extended ranges. At 100 yards a typical pistol bullet will lose a lot of velocity. The extra MV can bring the impact velocity back up to normal spec.

All of these facts and logic still do not keep me from pursuing more velocity. I am not reckless about it but am interested to know what the real capabilities are. If one can combine extra velocity with a bullet that performs properly at that velocity, there just may be some benefit.
 
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KyJim

New member
Let me posit another issue. Wear and tear on the gun aside, are you getting better terminal performance from a bullet that was designed to work at 200 fps less? I've seen reports of Gold Dots suffering jacket separation when driven at "high" .357 mag velocities. They were designed to penetrate adequately and expand well at moderate for-caliber velocities. I also seem to recall seeing some test results with the Lehigh bullet from Underwood over-penetrating (for defensive purposes).

I say this with boxes of Underwood 10mm and .380 in my ammo cache. It's good ammo. Just match the right bullet with the right velocity for whatever your intended purpose is.
 
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5whiskey

New member
Underwood and Buffalo Bore load heavier. Are they within SAAMI?
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Underwood and buffalo bore get the velocities they do by using powders optimized for what they are trying to accomplish. Some load data for vihtavuori powders will nearly match underwood ammo. These powders aren't cheap. Neither is BB or underwood ammo.

Lots of of chemistry involved, but basically it involves getting the burn rate just right, and consistent from lot to lot. Most of their loads are, in fact, within Saami pressure specs for +p ammo.

That velocity still creates additional battering on a pistol, even if chamber pressure is within operating limits. As always, moderation is key. Shooting a box of Underwood here and there likely won't hurt anything, or shorten then service life of the firearm. Shooting nothing but underwood or BB? Probably won't be shooting long without problems.
 
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Jim Watson

New member
I have shot a bit of Vihtavuori powder. It is "clean" and consistent.
Their published load data is pure fantasy, I have never attained the velocity claimed.

I understand the "secret sauce" powder advertising.
 
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Cosmodragoon

New member
The bullets in question here were the "Xtreme Penetrators". While the name might be juvenile, the concept isn't. It is a non-expanding solid copper projectile machined from bar stock to come to a "+" tip with radial flutes. I have no doubt that they would hold up to more velocity than is possible with .357 magnum, or even maybe .460 S&W. (Underwood actually offers a 250-grain version of this bullet loaded in .460 S&W.)

As per wear and tear, I'm somehow less concerned about the revolvers. I did get looking at .357 Sig ammo over there. Like 10mm, .357 Sig is another one that's supposedly been "watered down" over the years. I didn't mention it with the initial examples because the Underwood load was only about a hundred fps faster.
 
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random guy

New member
The Xtreme Penetrator rounds are only one of Underwood's loadings. From gelatin tests I've seen, they aren't really a viable SD bullet unless you are defending against a Rhino or armored attacker.

They also load Gold Dots among other SD bullets and the real benefit of their super velocity is sometimes questionable. GDs operate really well at normal velocity. At Underwood velocities, they sometimes peel back clear to the base while still retaining 100% of weight (impressive!) but penetrating on the short side. This was their 115gr Gold Dot +P+. Like the Xtreme Penetrator, these might be just the ticket for some special circumstance but not really general SD use.

Their 124 gr Gold Dot +P+ is lower energy but appears better balanced for SD use.

Underwood 9mm Gold Dot 115gr +P+
1434 fps
525 fpe
9" penetration

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ7ri9wa728&t=73s
 
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Cosmodragoon

New member
The Xtreme Penetrator rounds are only one of Underwood's loadings. From gelatin tests I've seen, they aren't really a viable SD bullet unless you are defending against a Rhino or armored attacker.
Click to expand...

It happened to be what I was looking at when I noticed. The Penetrators look like they do just that, and do more damage than FMJ along the way. Yes, it might matter against armored bad guys or certain kinds of animal, depending on caliber. (The 250-grain .460 round should be good for just about anything!) It can also matter in cases where you might not be getting reliable expansion from hollowpoints. I've been looking to try them out in .380 and .38 special for that reason.
 
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