Unconscious competence in stress

[dakota.potts]

Sorry about all of the threads in T&T lately, I just have interest in a lot

I was reading another thread about trigger pull and recoil management as it relates to the 4 steps of learning (unconscious incompetence, conscious incompetence, conscious competence, and unconscious competence). The idea is that in the 4th stage, unconscious competence, you do something as a second nature with no conscious thought.

I know that fine motor skills deteriorate quickly in a situation where you have to defend yourself.

My question is this: If a person has reached true unconscious incompetence, say a perfect trigger pull and reset, and is truly competent at it without thinking, would this action be affected by stress? I'm imagining the Miculeks of the world. Would they still have a competent trigger pull since they have reached a stage where their muscle memory will take over, or would this be affected the same as a skill that they had to think their way through?

I guess this is a question that's hard for any of us to know since most shooters don't often get in gunfights. Still, I'm wondering if there is some way to know.

 

[pax]

Jim Cirillo referred to the infallible subconscious -- once it had been properly trained. Personally, I am willing to take his word for it.

pax

 

[Sarge]

My experience is not nearly that of Cirrilo's, but it is enough to tell you he was exactly right on that point.

 

[dakota.potts]

Wow. I honestly posted this expecting that the answer was going to be a no or a "maybe, but we don't have evidence".

Reading about Jim Cirillo is a great resource. Thank you for sharing.

 

[Deaf Smith]

A gent named John Wesley Harden was known to practice at night in hotels. Hotel patrons could hear him clicking his guns practicing.

And on several occasions he met multiple opponents and killed them. Even lawmen who saw him demonstrate his 'Harden Vest' were amazed at what he could do with them.

Same with another guy named Hickok. And he also met multiple opponents and did them in with cap-n-ball guns that were very hard to reload at any speed.

Unconscious competence comes from many years of hard practice. The skills have become ingrained so well the user does not 'think' of the techniques but just, as Brian Enos says, "lets it happen".

You also see this in Grand Masters of the martial arts (real ones, not those guys in fancy gui uniforms and pot bellies.)

Catch is, it does take alot of practice!

And BTW, you can train with a poor technique and over the years get so good with it that most people cannot intelligently defend against it. You just become so fast and sure that poor method becomes a good method.

Deaf

 

[HungryHunter]

I need to educate myself on this topic. I didn't know about those learning styles. I do know though about clearing houses with your heart rate over 170bpm, and 200lbs of gear you forget about corner fed, center fed, safety/selector switches, white light discipline,.pressure switches and it all flowed and was over before I recognized it all truly beginning.

All the years of training flowed into what I guess is your subliminal taking over, and then that transitions into confidence. I think they say there is three types of motor skills, fine complex,.and gross.All are supposed to vary with your heart rate.I dunno. I could do all that but I always had a hard time remembering to say Bravo team up, room secure, and say my LACE report.It was like I had jaw lock. I don't know if any of that helps at all. Was just kind of remembering out loud.

 

[HiBC]

I am sure not the combat ghuru.
To your question:
How much do you have to consciously think about a 4 or 5 speed transmission shift pattern,the feel of synchros,matching rpms,co-ordinating shifts,clutch engagement,traction feedback,and steering/throttle control?

If you focus on all of that,you may hit a parked car or run a red light.

We spend more time driving than shooting.

And we get to where we can manage 75 mph rush hour traffic,navigation,etc at the same time.

I don't know that it has to be too much more of a head game than that.

 

[Mobuck]

I've handled firearms my entire life and can attest to making some extremely remarkable shots w/o conscious thought beyond identifying the target. I've also missed many gimme shots by overthinking them.
Operation of the mechanical aspects of the firearm should not require conscious thought. If it does, you're behind the curve and need to spend more time physically handling the gun.

 

[Derbel McDillet]

My question is this: If a person has reached true unconscious incompetence, say a perfect trigger pull and reset, and is truly competent at it without thinking, would this action be affected by stress? I'm imagining the Miculeks of the world. Would they still have a competent trigger pull since they have reached a stage where their muscle memory will take over, or would this be affected the same as a skill that they had to think their way through?

If the stress triggers the sympathetic nervous system then yes unconscious competence can indeed be affected.

A self-defense situation can break down the shooter mentally, emotionally, and psychologically, and this can affect mental and physical performance.

World class performers have been known to choke under pressure.

 

[pax]

Here's an extended quote from Jim Cirillo's book Guns, Bullets, and Gunfights. It comes from the chapter titled, "Stress of the Gunfight."

As a result of participating in several gunfights, I have vividly learned that people are capable of what may be considered superhuman feats when they are placed under extreme stress.

I mentioned above that several reactions may surface under the stress of a gunfight. These reactions depend on how the danger is presented. If you turn a corner and walk right into a gunfight, you will most surely react as you have been trained -- and those are key words: as you have been trained. If your training was proper, you will dive for cover, as this is at the top of the survival tactics list. Drawing your weapon for defense should follow. If you react properly in this manner, you will probably survive this part of the gunfight.

Now a reaction called fear may appear. You may feel both physiological and psychological stress: the butterflies in the stomach, the wobble in the knees, a feeling of disbelief. This occurs as a delayed reaction to the gunfight that was thrust upon you instantly. This is normal due to the fact you were too busy protecting yourself and had many physical things to do. Your mind was required to think only of a defensive physical reaction. Once your mind is free from thinking of physical defense, it both releases all of the self-doubt you harbor and realizes how close to death you came. Then the fear sets in. I have spoken with many of my fellow officers who have also experienced this phenomenon.

If, prior to your first gunfight, you expect that gunplay is imminent, it can be a most horrifying experience. This happened to me in my first fight. It was evident by the actions of the four males who entered the establishment I was staking out that an armed robbery was about to take place. In these terrifying moments, I wondered, "Will I fail? Will I be killed?" Self-doubt played on my mind as terror and fear grabbed me. A feeling of great weakness came over me. I felt as though my limbs were coming apart and my bones were melting. I mentally cursed myself for feeling so much fear. When three of the robbers produced weapons and placed them to the heads of the cashier and manager, I knew that despite my great fear I had to challenge the gunmen before any harm came to the store employees.

As I popped up from concealment to make my challenge, I experienced a miraculous phenomenon. My pistol sights came into view as clearly and precisely and steadily as if I were at one of the many pistol matches I had attended. ...

I could not comprehend how I was able to take out three gunmen when I was so consumed with fear prior to the gunfight. ...

It was now evident to me that the subconscious can take over during moments of great stress. When it does take over, it is infallible -- it can only achieve perfection. The shots that I made in that first gunfight were so precise and so quick that I have never been able to duplicate the feat at a range on paper targets...

I do not wish to convey to the reader that these reactions are unique to me or to rare individuals. I most assuredly know I am very normal. In fact, I consider myself, if not a coward, a man of normal fear and not really brave beyond the average...

By now you must be asking how I was able to perform such a feat if I claim to be so average. My only answer would be that from the first day one was given to me, I shot a weapon with great fear. I was actually scared of it at first, but I shot it in every conceivable position I could think of: one hand, two hands, weak hand. I knew that I had to learn to shoot this weapon well because my life or someone else's might depend on it.

Although I practiced diligently and frequently, at the time I was unaware of how my subconscious mind was committing all I was learning to memory like some supercomputer. As a result, during the gunfight, when my conscious mind went haywire with stress, the infallible subconscious came forth to save my skin.

Good book, by the way. Highly recommended. Even though the hardware parts are extremely dated these days, the insights are timeless.

pax

 

[40-82]

Excellent quote, Kathy. It brings back to mind a day in the early 80's when I shot next to Jim Cirillo in an IPSC match in South Carolina. The chance to spend a day listening to him was an opportunity I won't forget. He was very generous in his willingness to share his experience with a young shooter.

 

[zombietactics]

The only measureable stress equal to that experienced in combat is "stage fright".

Speaking or performing in front of others is one a few "natural fears" that almost everyone has. Some experience this so badly that they lose bladder/bowel control or faint, and it's even resulted in a few documented cases of inducing heart attacks.

What is notable in this respect is that even people with such high levels of stress, nonetheless can train themselves to perform extreme feats of fine motor control on command. Concert pianists and violinists come to mind in this respect.

I see no reason why the operation of firearms should be any different.

 

[dakota.potts]

It's interesting you should note that. I play in a rock/metal band that's fairly technical. I had normal stage fright for a while, nothing crippling, but after playing 30 times or so I now feel a lot more comfortable on the stage.

When I really am in the right groove, I notice the separation of self mentioned about Cirillo. It's almost as if I'm watching myself play. Things that I normally fumble with or struggle with often times become fluid and natural. Sometimes I'll "wake up" and realize I've been on stage for 15 minutes without any conscious thought. My muscle memory from twice a week practices sees me through.

I have to wonder if there are parallels between that and the type of shooting I mention here. After all, I'm not afraid for my life if I hit a bum note. Except in certain dive bars I do see your point in that musicians do learn to perform well under pressure, but I wonder if that would hold true in a type of stress that is life or death.

The accounts above seem to tell me that maybe they aren't so similar. The biggest question I have to ask myself is "How do I know Jim Cirillo isn't just a remarkable man under pressure?"

 

[Derbel McDillet]

Deputy Kyle Dinkhell experienced classic OODA loop performance disintegration in which his multiple attempts to control a novel situation failed and these immediate previous experiences of failure caused his performance to collapse and he was ultimately murdered.

Dash cam video of the incident: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6z8q4lOrDU

 

[Tactical Jackalope]

Sorry, disagree completely with people assuming what will or won't happen. As Rory Miller once said and I completely agree with, something along the lines of seeing a highly decorated officer who's battle proven can freeze up whenever his brain decides to and the rookie 5'0 tall woman can move mountains when her brain permits. Both under stress has never been more true.

You cannot assume this or that will happen or not happy based on training. I know it's sad and I'm being somewhat of a "killjoy". But this is all just spit balling. Playing guitar on a stage has no remote similarity as being in a gunfight. The wiring of the nervousness of stage fright and the "flight or fight" mentality when your brain comprehends it's in imminent danger of seeing black forever is extremely different. Trying to associate the two as one in my most honest and sincere opinion is just plain wreckless.

I've followed a lot of posts and threads by the OP. I recommend one thing, take a training class. There is no way to mentally prepare for any situation there is only a correct and and incorrect ballpark estimate on what to do and proper muscle memory to do so. The rest falls on you and godspeed. You aren't going to learn how to do anything by reading and watching videos online.

Good luck and take a training course and do it.

 

[Derbel McDillet]

To the OP - I suggest you obtain a copy of the book, "Training at the Speed of Life, Vol. 1: The Definitive Textbook for Police and Military Reality Based Training".

It goes into detailed discussion of the psychology of criminal/deadly encounter and addresses both stress innoculation (your thread previous to this one that was closed) and unconscious competence,

See - http://www.amazon.com/Training-Speed-Life-Vol-Definitive/dp/0976199408

Rory Miller's blog and books, as mentioned by Constantine, are another great source for the down & dirty of criminal encounters.

 

[zombietactics]

RE: "Deputy Kyle Dinkhell experienced classic OODA loop performance disintegration in which his multiple attempts to control a novel situation failed and these immediate previous experiences of failure caused his performance to collapse and he was ultimately murdered."

With disrespect meant for no one, including the officer, this did not appear to be a "OODA loop performance disintegration", but rather a basic failure of mindset.

The criminal had a weapon in his hand, after exhibiting violent belligerent behavior. Rather than repeated warnings to "put the gun down", there should have been ONE forcefully stated warning (with the officer drawn and pointed in) followed very quickly by a hail of gunfire should the subject not immediately comply.

 

[btmj]

I bet in a highly stressful situation, the average person could rapidly pull on their trousers, socks, a sweat shirt, and tie their shoes.... and be talking and thinking about something else entirely. It is because they do it every day.

When you have practiced to the point where acquiring a sight picture and squeezing the trigger is just like tieing you shoes... well, you are there !

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

While gun fight anecdotes are interesting - performance under stress has been intensively studies.

Standard human factors texts and literature indicates quite well that as stress increases performance increases for a bit and then declines as stress continues to increase. The entire curve can move around based on task difficulty.

Intense simulation training can instill in a person a set of automatic procedures that can mitigate the conscious confusion that occurs under stress but that can break if the stress level is too high or the unconscious routine is interrupted.

Last, focusing on trigger pull and perfect reset are probably trivial parts of the overall fighting response in a time critical event. The variance is perceiving the situation and having an action plan based on a rapid evaluation and choice of actions.

Simulation training to achieve that is what is needed. Of course, some competence in shooting skills is necessary but that is not the biggest part.

Having instilled good trigger skills with about 3500 to 10000 repetitions, then you need well designed and controlled FOF training to reach a significant level of what is called unconscious competence in the gun world or automaticity in the psych/human factors world.

Gun folks like to focus on ammo and trigger, etc. However, you are better off with a comrade who has lots of the training I described above and a SW Model 19 than square range person who has a tricked out Lou Komber 1911.

 

[Mr.trooper]

Just keep in mind that there is a lot more to being competent in a combat scenario than trigger pull. IMO that is one of the least important things.