UN anti gives pep talk to California Assembly

DC

Moderator Emeritus
This is really annoying

Note: Alpers is one of the most vocal international anti-firearm activists.
As usual his testimony stretches the truth a bit.
______________________________________________________________________
Firearm Registration and Owner Licensing - the International Experience

California State Assembly Select Committee on Gun Violence


Testimony of Philip Alpers, gun policy researcher
Glendale, California, 1 December 1999
Mr Chairman, committee members, ladies & gentlemen.


Thank you for inviting me here to speak today. My field of research is the
international regulation of firearms. I work with police unions, government
agencies and universities in North America, New Zealand and Europe -
currently with the World Council of Churches Project on Violence in Geneva,
Switzerland. I hold accreditation to the United Nations Commission on Crime
Prevention & Criminal Justice, and for several years I have spoken at the
Crime Commission and similar forums, mainly on the licensing and registration
of firearms.


Around the world, handgun registration and owner-licensing are acknowledged
as the most effective way to minimise handgun-related death and trauma.


In almost every democracy, police see handgun registration as an essential
crime-busting tool which puts criminals behind bars every day.


There's nothing new in this. For more than sixty years, registration and
owner licensing have been the accepted norm in two of the most established
fields of crime and injury prevention - road safety and gun safety.


In both of these, two parallel systems of accountability - that is, licensing
the owner, and then registering the gun or the automobile - are closely
linked and interdependent. It's the experience of many countries that neither
measure works well without the other.


If we list the democracies which have most in common with the United States,
the line-up looks like this.


Table: Handgun Registration and Owner Licensing Around the World


Two comments on this table. First, you may have heard it said that Israel and
Switzerland exemplify armed, but safe societies. Please note that in both
countries, registration of firearms and owner licensing are long-established
public safety measures.


Secondly, this table lists only those nations which register handguns. Almost
every country on this list also goes one step further. They register all
types of firearm, long or short.


Our countries also have different rates of gun-related death and injury. The
next chart comes from the most recent comparative study from the Centres for
Disease Control in Atlanta.


Chart: Firearm Death Rates in 24 High-income Countries


You'll see that among the wealthier nations, the United States suffers the
highest rate of firearm-related death. Even taking into account last month's
update from the Centres for Disease Control in Atlanta, which showed a sharp
decrease in firearm-related mortality, the American rate of gun death per
head of population remains double that of Northern Ireland. On the next line
down, Finland has one of the highest rates of gun ownership among developed
nations. Below that, Switzerland's rate of gun death is one of the highest in
Western Europe.


So, how did our nations become so different? There is one period in recent
history which marked a watershed.


Sixty to seventy years ago, our nations took very different paths. In the
1930s, the United States decided to register all machine guns and licence
their owners. As a result of that stringent registration, machine guns are
now the firearms least used in violence. But at the same time, the 54 members
of the British Commonwealth, the nations of Europe and many others went a
significant step further. We registered not just machine guns, but also
handguns.


In developed democracies outside the United States, six or seven decades of
consistent firearm registration and owner licensing - in particular the
registration of handguns - are recognised as the cornerstone of effective gun
injury prevention.


Nobody's pretending that we foreigners are any less violent than Americans.
We're not. The big difference is in our levels of lethal violence. The
eminent Californian criminologist Franklin Zimring put it this way:


"You're just as likely to get punched in the mouth in a bar in Sydney
(Australia) as in a bar in Los Angeles. But you're 20 times as likely to be
killed in Los Angeles."


Zimring goes on to suggest that the free availability of firearms -
especially handguns in the United States - could have something to do with
this disparity.


Many countries have shown that a register of firearms acts to reduce the flow
of guns from lawful owner to criminal. In Australia, the United Kingdom,
Canada and New Zealand, the computerised firearm registry is consulted
thousands of times each day as a crime-busting tool. Our senior law
enforcement officers agree; the more guns we have on the register, the more
crimes police can solve and the more trauma we can prevent.


In one survey, 67% of police who used the gun register in criminal cases said
it helped them to solve a crime - often on several occasions.


When a policewoman was killed and a judge and other police were injured in a
bombing in Melbourne, Australia, the handgun register proved crucial in
tracing the offenders. When three people were found dead in a burnt-out
Melbourne gun shop in 1993, police had no suspects. It was the handgun
register alone which resulted in the killer being convicted for murder.
Hundreds of similar cases are in the police files of Great Britain, Canada
and New Zealand.


Tracing the gun is not merely a common Hollywood sub-plot. A gun registry
works for real police every day of the week, helping to solve crimes from
burglary to murder, from drug-dealing to terrorism.


The Australian Institute of Criminology found that a gun register aids
policing, "even when it is administratively clumsy and reputedly operating at
less than maximum efficiency."


To quote the President of the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police:


"Without information about who owns guns, there is no effective gun control.
Opponents of gun control argue that the registration of firearms will not
reduce crime. In fact, it is the position of the Canadian Association of
Chiefs of Police that cost effective registration is a key component of the
new proposed gun control legislation. Registration will help ensure that gun
owners are held accountable for their firearms and do not sell [them]
illegally or give them to individuals without appropriate authorisation. It
will also help ensure that guns are safely stored. Claiming that gun
registration will not prevent crime is akin to claiming that registering cars
does not prevent accidents."


Chief MacDonald repeats the single most obvious advantage of firearm
registration - accountability.


Every mass-produced gun which is used in violence began its life as a legal
firearm in the hands of a lawful owner. Many of these guns "leak out" to
criminals, either by unlawful sale, by theft or neglect. By introducing
accountability all the way down the chain, a well-designed gun registry can
greatly reduce this lethal leakage from lawful gun owner to criminal.


Individual responsibility and accountability for each firearm in your
possession was the theme which inspired one notable American to say:


"No honest man can object to [gun] registration, a procedure much simpler
than the registration and licensing procedure applicable to automobiles. Show
me the man who doesn't want his gun registered, and I will show you a man who
shouldn't have a gun."


That was US Attorney General Homer Cummings, advocating registration in 1936.


So, how do so many countries make registration work?


Here are some common components of registration and licensing in developed
democracies.

Gun Owner Vetting (criminal history, domestic violence and mental health
safeguards)
Gun Owner Training (public safety education as a condition of licensing)
Genuine Reason (demonstrated need for each handgun; armed retaliation
discouraged by law)
Club Membership (regular attendance required at an approved pistol club)
Spousal Interview (a private interview with the applicant's current or most
recent spouse or partner)
Secure Storage (handguns stored without ammunition in a steel safe fixed to
the building)
Separate Ammunition Storage (specific prohibition on keeping firearms loaded
ready to fire)
Verification of Storage (physical inspection of private storage facilities
for all handguns)
Fraud-Resistant Licence (thumbprint, photograph, etc.)
Ammunition-Specific Licences (ammunition can only be purchased for the type
of firearm declared)
Removal of Firearms (mandatory removal within 24 hours of a domestic
protection order, etc.)
Regular Re-Vetting (gun owners must re-apply and be interviewed again at
regular intervals)
These are not the untried quirks of demagogues. These are mainstream, widely
accepted measures. They've survived more than half a century of testing in
democracies large and small, from libertarian to conservative.
To reduce the flow of guns to criminals, to prevent all forms of
firearm-related trauma, these are the public safety measures which have
worked for us.


And the public approves. In opinion polls, 70% to 90% of voters in Great
Britain, Canada and New Zealand consistently support firearm registration. In
Australia, where even 70% of shooters support registration, a major survey
taken ten months after stringent new gun laws were introduced showed that gun
control had scored for Prime Minister John Howard's new government the
highest approval rating in all 20 categories polled. To put it crudely, this
is one public health measure which wins votes.


Of course, flawless implementation is rarely possible. All our governments
have compliance problems, and just as some unregistered cars and unlicensed
drivers remain on our streets, some firearms will remain illegal. But it's
our experience that handgun registration enjoys the support of most
legitimate owners of firearms. By and large, gun owners truly are both
law-abiding people and good citizens.


No more so than in Hawaii, where handguns have been registered for forty
years with very little opposition. Five years ago, Hawaii extended its
registration system to cover all firearms, plus all transfers of ownership,
both new and second-hand, for the life of every gun.. Following the recent
mass shooting near Honolulu, in which the accused is a licensed gun owner,
the state is now considering re-registration and re-vetting of all firearm
owners at regular intervals in an attempt to weed out high-risk individuals.


Hawaii has a sixteen-day waiting period to buy any firearm, mandatory
confiscation in cases of domestic violence, assault weapons are banned and
permission to carry concealed weapons is virtually never granted to
civilians. The state's gun death rate is one-third the national average for
the United States.


Before I finish I'd like to address recent claims relating to Commonwealth
countries. It's been said that Canada, Australia and Great Britain have
suffered noticeable increases in relevant crime categories since the
introduction of new gun laws. These assertions are not supported by the facts.


Chart: Gun Death Rates in the United States, Canada and Australia


As you may know, the good news is that gun deaths in America are down 21%
since 1993.


Much the same is true in Canada, where the number of gun deaths most recently
reached a 30-year low.


In the 1996/97 Australian gun buy-back, two-thirds of a million firearms were
sold to the government at market value. Thousands more gun owners volunteered
their firearms for free, and nearly 700,000 guns were destroyed. The
equivalent in the United States would be 30 million firearms out of
circulation.


A year after the implementation of Australia's new laws, and following the
gun buy-back, the most recent figures from the Australian Bureau of
Statistics show that gun deaths in that country have dropped again, this time
to the lowest figure in 18 years.


Two years ago in the United Kingdom, civilian handguns were banned, bought
back from their owners and destroyed. In the year following the law change,
Scotland recorded a 17% drop in all firearm-related offences. The British
Home Office reports that in the nine months following the handgun ban,
firearm-related offences in England and Wales dropped by 13%.


A resident of Great Britain is still 50 times less likely to be a victim of
gun homicide than an American.


Finally, it may also be worth noting that in the industrialised nations with
lower levels of gun death than yours, the population is exposed to similar
levels of media violence. So we might ask the question: if it's true that
media violence makes guns desirable, how do all these countries differ in
making guns available?


Philip Alpers
San Francisco, California
alpers@ibm.net


------------------
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!
 

Coinneach

Staff Alumnus
Around the world, handgun registration and owner-licensing are acknowledged
as the most effective way to minimise handgun-related death and trauma.


Yeah... among criminals.

In almost every democracy, police see handgun registration as an essential
crime-busting tool which puts criminals behind bars every day.


Yeah, we all know how many crims register their guns.

There's nothing new in this.

Yeah again. Victim disarmament has been the SOP of dictators throughout the entire history of the world.

For more than sixty years,

1939, eh? Class, who can tell me what world-shattering event started in 1939 and was facilitated by gun control? Anyone? Anyone?

registration and owner licensing have been the accepted norm in two of the most established fields of crime and injury prevention - road safety and gun safety.

Yeah again. We know how registration of cars has eliminated accidents and vehicular homicide.

Sorry, that's all I could read. Now where's that Pepto...

------------------
"The evils of tyranny are rarely seen but by him who resists it."
-- John Hay, 1872

[This message has been edited by Coinneach (edited December 23, 1999).]
 

deanf

New member
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Claiming that gun
registration will not prevent crime is akin to claiming that registering cars
does not prevent accidents.[/quote]

Hmmm . . . I guess I've prevented trauma merely by registering my cars. Shouldn't I be getting a discount on my insurance? Boy, dem Canackies sure is smart.


------------------
Stay cloze to ze candles, ze staircase (dramatic pause) . . . can be trecherous.
 

Oatka

New member
"Of course, flawless implementation is rarely possible. All our governments have compliance problems, and just as some unregistered cars and unlicensed
drivers remain on our streets, some firearms will remain illegal."

As in none of the criminals obey it.

I once watched a comedian take a roll of bologna and slice it thin, then thick, then slanted, then split down the middle. The comedian looked at the audience and said, "Gee folks, no matter how you slice it, it's still baloney!"

------------------
The New World Order has a Third Reich odor.
 

Elker_43

New member
Well, right off the get-go, this self proclaimed expert should have been brought to task by the Kalifornia legislative body, as he said in the following areas:
"In almost every democracy....."
"If we list the democracies...."
SORRY JERK...We are a Constitutional Republic, not a Democracy (although Clinton thinks we are and has declared himself "Ruler for Life"

He also said..."Sixty to seventy years ago, our nations took very different paths."

Sorry again JERK...We took our path over 200 years ago.

All of this is typical Liberal/Socialistic hype.

Coinneach - Everything you indicated is right on the money....


------------------
To own firearms is to affirm that freedom and liberty are not gifts from the state.

[This message has been edited by Elker_43 (edited December 23, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by Elker_43 (edited December 23, 1999).]
 

Oleg Volk

Staff Alumnus
All future plans aside, note that they have the same unimaginative plan for dealing with already onwned property to which people have a sentimantal as well as practical attachment:

"turn 'em in or we kill you and your dog, too"

Trouble is, it worked for Oda Nobunaga and his immediate successors back at the turn of 17c. The bright side is, Irgun and Hagana, small groups of compeletely uncombatworthy Jewish refugees had made Palestine awfully uncomfortable to the British over less. Some people do learn and Americans just might learn in time.

------------------
Oleg

http://dd-b.net/RKBA
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>When three people were found dead in a burnt-out Melbourne gun shop in 1993, police had no suspects. It was the handgun register alone which resulted in the killer being convicted for murder.[/quote]

The man's a liar and has been caught out.

In this particular incident, the killers were observed to throw the gun from a car as they crossed a bridge. It hit the railing and bounced back, and the police were able to seize it. The witnesses also got the car registration number and descriptions of the BGs.

All the so-called "register" did was confirm the gun was, indeed, stolen from the gunshop. It had never been licensed to anyone because it had never been sold!!

An e-mail from the Australian firearms traders association has been sent to the California State Assembly Select Committee on Gun Violence, pointing out his "mistruths".

Seriously, folks, this man is an "a**hole" of the worst kind.

B

[This message has been edited by Bruce in West Oz (edited December 29, 1999).]
 

zip

New member
ok heres my stupid question what exactly did the regestrations do to prevent any of these crimes or any other ? huh huh tell me that mister ?

------------------
oneshotonekill
 

Mendocino

New member
Bruce,

Thank you! Its great to have RKBA forces across the world. I think it presumptuous to think that the California Legislature is concerned with Truth. However, I hope that they have a rare moment and actually listen to fact. BTW-can you post the email sent by the Australian firearms traders association so that those of us from California can send this to our legislators?

Thanks,

JH

------------------
It is far better to dare mighty things, though riddled with failure, than to live in the dull grey of mediocrity.
 
Aaaarrrggghh! I dumped the Alert off my computer!! I knew someone would want it as soon as I did that. :(

I can only suggest you e-mail Gary Fleetwood of the SSAA and see if he can get you a copy. He's their Special Projects Director and will help all he can.

gf@ssaa.org.au

Cheers
B
 

G-Freeman

New member
What this snake has to say is not as disturbing as the fact that the CA Assembly will give him an audience as opposed to the folks that ELECTED them. If they want to live in Canada let em move there. Hell, I'll pay part of the freight.
 

BTR

New member
If you wish to learn about gun registration in other countries, I highly recommend "The Samurai, the Mountie and the Cowboy."

Apparently, an internal police report of Austrailian gun registration concluded that it was a waste of time and money.
 

Zundfolge

New member
In almost every democracy, police see handgun registration as an essential
crime-busting tool which puts criminals behind bars every day.

What he doesn't tell you is that all these "criminals" that are put behind bars "every day" are only "criminals" because they failed to properly register their weapons :rolleyes:
 

paratrooper

New member
G-Freeman : I'll pay the rest of the freight . Advise cost and check will be forthcoming . You have an excellent point . Why did they listen to him in the first place . Who in the Hell is he ? Don't they have better things to do ? Kids dropping out of school at an alarming rate , kids having kids and living on welfare FOREVER , etc. .. I remember Chief Parks in L.A. losing a grand daughter to gun violence . I can't remember hearing that the felon had registered his gun . They know where the problems are , they just don't got the huevos to go in and put a stop to it . Too many votes and the old PC attitude prevent calling these people on their actions . The guns are in The Barrio and The Ghetto . If they don't go in and get them they will never be gotten .
 

SpyGuy

New member
When I hear this kind of crap going on in our government, I wish that I could ammend our state and federal constitutions to require all presentations to the government be in the form of a debate by representatives of opposing viewpoints. Each party would be required to submit a copy of their speech to the other side and following each speech, the opposing presenter would have an opportunity for rebuttal. That would help even the playing field so to speak.
 

MeekAndMild

New member
You'll see that among the wealthier nations, the United States suffers the highest rate of firearm-related death

Funny they never mention that the Mexicans in the US have a lower murder rate than Mexicans in Mexico where pistols are banned. Nor do they mention that Blacks in the US, while having the highest rate of any of our major ethnic grops have a lower rate than in Black nations where pistols are registered or banned. Nor do they mention that the white US rate is about that of Scotland. Nor do they mention the highest rates are in cities or among public housing populations where pistols are banned or registered.
 

RickD

Moderator
He also said..."Sixty to seventy years ago, our nations took very different paths."

In 1900, the homicide rate in England and the USA were approximately the same, about 1.0 per 100K. This was when England and the US had no federal gun laws and very few state gun laws.

The divergence, in my opinion came with the adoption of the 18th Amendment and the prohibition on alcohol (and the Harrison Narcotics Act before it). America has never quite recovered from them.

Nevertheless, 75% of homicides are committed by adult felons (killing other felons 71% of the time). The remainder is comprised mostly of juvenile offenders with similar offenses in their histories.

One thing the above proves, Brit criminals don't generally see homicide as a solution to their problems, while American criminals (and Russian and Jamaican....) do often see it as a means to an end. And we should be disarmed in the face of it?

BTW, I wonder if the good Doctor would be making gun licenses as easy to get as driver's licenses complete with training in sophomore year in high school and universal recognition?

Rick
 

Jay Baker

New member
This was so typical in Kalif. (And I lived there for 35 years.)

One communistnazi talking to a bunch of communistnazi politicians, and all of them nodding their empty heads like doddling birds.

J.B.
 
Top