U.S.Government Owned M1911

Status
Not open for further replies.
L

lamarw

New member
I am not nieve, and I know there are some former US Govt. owned (stamped on the slide) M1911s out there and possibly in the hands of some of the forum readers.

I also know General Officer service pistols were offered for sale to a retiring
General Officers.

My question is: Other than General Officer pistols, was there ever a legal way of acquiring an M1911 Goverment .45 Pistol? I have never heard of the U.S. Government selling these guns to the general public. In fact, I heard all the old inventory was destroyed once the M9 Pistol replaced the M1911.

Would this lead us to believe the many Military owned M1911s out in the public are "Hot" so to speak? Were all these guns at some point in time of roughly 80 or so years stolen misappropriated from Uncle Sam or found and not returned to the appropriate owner (The Government). Are the guns considered stolen weapons? What is the ramification of having someone using one in committing a crime or more importantly in a defensive roll while defending yourself from a bad guy. Could you get charged for having a stolen weapon?

I am sure most owners actually did not steel the M1911, but would they be considered as in possession of or having bought stolen goods?
 
K

kraigwy

New member
I have never heard of the U.S. Government selling these guns to the general public.
Click to expand...

They have in the past, I remember my father telling me when he came home from Germany at the end of the Berlin airlift, while he walked from the terminal to the plane, they had venders selling surplus guns to returning GIs (AF in his case). One table had 1911a1s, leather flap holster, web belt, mag pouch, and two mags for $15 bucks.

That's just one case, I'm sure there are many others.

At the WP Wilson Matches, (National Guard Championships) as awards for the Match winners, they gave M1s to the winning rifleshooter and 1911s for the winning pistol shooter.

Anyway there are a lot of them out there, I have one. it dosn't come up on NCIC list as being stolen.
 
D

dogtown tom

New member
At one time the 1911 was available from both the DCM (forerunner to the CMP) and as surplus through commercial channels.

Go to the library and look through back issues of old gun magazines like American Rifleman and you'll be amazed at what was available via mail order before 1968.
 
D

Double Naught Spy

New member
I have one made prior to 1920 that was sold to the soldier who carried it when he left the military in 1925. The paperwork is buried in the safe, but the gun, holster, and 100 rounds of ammo (I think that is the right amount) went for less than $30.
 
L

lamarw

New member
Thanks to all who replied. It does pay to ask questions and learn something new. My Brother has one he received from a client. I was kind of concerned that it might not be legit.

It seems there is a better chance it is legit. Thanks Again.
 
M

MadHatter1

New member
Unless there's a specific reason to believe it ISN'T "legit", the reasonable assumtion is that is. From WWII up to Vietnam, there was little, if any accounatblity of sidearms. Hundereds of thousands of 1911s were produced during WWII, just for that war. Due to the nature of the battlefields of the time, thousands were lost or re-approprieated. Soldiers didn't return to FOBs pretty much every day, where accounatbility could be taken. When my granddaddy came back, he had his 1911 in his duffle bag. Nobody ever asked that it be returned. He may have signed for it once upon a time, but good luck tracking down that record. The army didn't care.
 
A

Aguila Blanca

Staff
Out of all the "UNITED STATES PROPERTY" M1911s and M1911A1s in private hands today, I would guesstimate that more are of dubious provenance than are definitely "legitimate." But ... the United States military doesn't issue old M1911A1s any more, and as far as I know there has never been any attempt on the part of the government to track down any of the misappropriated pistols and bring them back into the fold. Whether or not your brother's pistol is legitimate, IMHO it doesn't make any difference whatsoever ... unless the serial number has been removed or defaced.
 
C

Chris_B

New member
The US government simply doesn't care about this issue on the one hand, and on the other, I'm fortunate enough to have an M1911, US Property stamped. I bought it with my C&R license- a Federal Firearms License. Which also means the man who sold it to me had it on his FFL books, just like me...and there is no fear of being arrested for stolen US Property. S/Ns were rarely recorded by Uncle Sam making it hard to prove it was stolen. Sorta kinda the same situation in which people try to find out who carried a particular M1 rifle is Korea or WWII- very hard to do. Plus, times were different then. If you lost your M1 rifle, you'd pay for it out of your payroll allotment until it was paid off. If you lost it, and you could swipe somebody else's and nobody knew...well now it's the other guy's problem.

This 'is it "hot" goods' thing comes up from time to time in the collecting circles that I am in contact with, and my opinion, as well as some others', is this:

Let's assume that my M1911 was stolen. Ripped off. Swiped. It can be safely assumed that the personal sacrifice of the man who performed that theft was greatly in excess of the value of the pistol. While that can't be proven, it is true that many US soldiers went to WWI and WWII without proper equipment, training, etc., and to me, that means the man who swiped it probably paid for its value many times over in service, sacrifice, and possibly blood. I have no problems at all with the man pilfering the pistol
 
D

dogtown tom

New member
Chris_B:... I bought it with my C&R license- a Federal Firearms License. Which also means the man who sold it to me had it on his FFL books, just like me...and there is no fear of being arrested for stolen US Property...
Click to expand...

It is a common misconception that acquiring a firearm from a FFL is somehow proof that the gun is not stolen. There is no national database that FFL's can access to check a firearms status. Only LE can use the NCIC database for official investigations of stolen property.

If a dealer purchases/trades for a firearm he will record it in his bound book. When it is sold he logs it out to the buyer. That satifies the GCA'68 but has nothing to do with it's provenance.

While you won't get charged with theft, if you are in possession of stolen property you will have to give it back.
 
C

Chris_B

New member
Oh brother!

Let me explain something to you Tom, since you have taken it upon yourself to school me

Here's what you wish I'd said: "The fact that I bought a firearm with my C&R disqualifies it from ever being stolen property"

Here IS what I said: "I bought it [meaning my particular M1911] with my C&R license- a Federal Firearms License. Which also means the man who sold it to me had it on his FFL books, just like me...and there is no fear of being arrested for stolen US Property"

Those two statements are NOT identical. You're out of line. You make it out as if I am saying buying stolen property is OK as long as it's a C&R purchase, and I demonstrably did not. I said there was no fear of being arrested for it on this particular pistol. I take offense at your implication of ignorance on my part, and at your patronization. I'll thank you for not putting words in my mouth ever again
 
C

ChrisWNY

New member
Yep, I have one from my Grandfather also, it was his WWII sidearm. My father had the gun appraised at a local FFL, guy said it was worth ~$4500 based on the condition it was in combined with the fact that there was something unique about his particular M1911A1 model. It still has its original finish and is in pristine mint condition. In NY the best thing to do to "legitimize" such a weapon is to obtain a pistol permit then surrender the weapon to the police and/or sheriff (stating that you "found" the weapon while cleaning out your grandpap's attic), and request that they allow a local FFL of your choosing to pick up the weapon. Then it can be registered on your permit for $3.
 
B

Bud Helms

Senior Member
It's easy to make faulty assumptions from someone else's post. It's also easy to get offended when someone makes faulty assumptions from your post.

Here ... *twinkle* ... *twinkle* ... that's me magic wand spreading a little chill dust.
 
D

dogtown tom

New member
Lighten up Francis....

Chris_B

Here's what you wish I'd said: "The fact that I bought a firearm with my C&R disqualifies it from ever being stolen property" I never said that or implicated that YOU said that. Whether you have a C&R or not has no bearing on my comment

Here IS what I said: "I bought it [meaning my particular M1911] with my C&R license- a Federal Firearms License. Which also means the man who sold it to me had it on his FFL books, just like me...and there is no fear of being arrested for stolen US Property" And THIS is what I addressed. An FFL having a gun on his books does not in any way mean the firearm has never been stolen. If the 1911 was stolen and later sold or traded to an FFL, who sold it to you........it would still be a stolen firearm.

Those two statements are NOT identical. No kidding? you wrote both of them

You're out of line. You make it out as if I am saying buying stolen property is OK as long as it's a C&R purchase Horsehockey, you posted a statement regarding FFL's and their bookkeeping- I commented on the common belief that buying from a licensed dealer means the gun was never stolen.

I'll thank you for not putting words in my mouth ever again I didn't. But you did, attributing an entire statement to something you think I "wish I'd said" :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Sorry my post offended you. That was not the intent. My intent was to point out that the transaction between you and the seller was not somehow immune to the sale of a stolen firearm- just because the seller holds a Federal Firearms License.
 
Last edited:
L

ljnowell

New member
Sorry my post offended you. That was not the intent. My intent was to point out that the transaction between you and the seller was not somehow immune to the sale of a stolen firearm- just because the seller holds a Federal Firearms License.
Click to expand...
And thats not what he said. He said he was immune from prosecution because he could prove he didnt steal it.
 
D

Dr. Strangelove

New member
Many surplus items still have US Govt markings, tents, packs, canteens, mess kits, ammo boxes, etc.

1911's have even been sold in recent memory, a cousin of mine went into the Marine Corps in the early 90's (he's a gunnery sargent now). Sometime in the mid 90's he asked me if I wanted one for $200.00, they were being sold at that time. Mostly shot-out rattletraps, and I didn't have the money back then anyway...
 
D

dogtown tom

New member
ljnowell:

And thats not what he said. He said he was immune from prosecution because he could prove he didnt steal it.
Click to expand...

Nope. He said he was immune from ARREST, not prosecution.

Read this from my first post:
While you won't get charged with theft, if you are in possession of stolen property you will have to give it back.
Click to expand...
I'll repeat it once again.....receiving a firearm from a licensed gun dealer is no guarantee that it has never been stolen.

If a LEO were to run a serial number of one of your guns and discovers it is listed in the NCIC as stolen you'll be in hot water until you can prove how it was acquired. For example: You get pulled over for a traffic stop and the officer sees your handgun in the back seat. He takes it, runs the serial # on NCIC and it comes back as stolen. Guess what? You'll probably get cuffed and a ride to jail. If you are able to show that you purchased from a licensed dealer (who will have the gun recorded in his bound book) it's highly doubtful you would face any charge. But you will lose the gun, it's stolen property.
 
Last edited:
L

ljnowell

New member
I'll repeat it once again.....receiving a firearm from a licensed gun dealer is no guarantee that it has never been stolen.
Click to expand...

Can you please quote where anyone said that? It seems you are talking to hear yourself talk and arguing blindly on a point that doesnt exist.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top