U.S. Army Ranger issued HP ammo?

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Ac1d0v3r1d3

New member
So i was talking with a carpenter i work with today about Firearms. And he starts to tell me about the ammo he was issued when he was deployed in Haiti. He called them "armor piercing" But then went on to describe what to me sounded like Federal Premium HP's . "Hollow Points with a little post in the middle"
I believe he was with the 4th Ranger battalion then, he also served in Somolia in the 3rd, where he was issued standard FMJ.
Anyone else hear about the military using HP ammo? Or am i mistaken? Is there an armor piercing round that has a hollow point?
 
M

moulton

New member
im pretty sure we are banned from using anything but FMJ for our military:confused: ....maybe we used it because it was a peacekeeping mission?
 
A

Ac1d0v3r1d3

New member
yeah...

Thats what i thought too. Which is why i posed about it :)
I figure that if there is an Army issue HP-AP round somebody here might know about it.
He also mentioned that they were pretty much acting as SWAT in Haiti. Breaking down doors in the middle of the night and abducting BG's. So maybe thats why they were allowed to use HP. It wasnt a "war" so to speak.
 
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rantingredneck

New member
Certain special forces/anti terrorist units are allowed to carry HP ammo. For general warfare only FMJ is allowed by international "law"
 
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radom

New member
The current accord refers to "causing unnessasary suffering" and does not refer to FMJ ammo. You could say that using FMJ and not HP would cause "unnessasary suffering". Guess thats why they now get away with using hollow points in the .30 cal sniper loads now.
 
M

Mueller

New member
The Hague accords address rounds for use in a "Declared" war.

Police actions or anti-terrorism or counter insurgency, do not meet the standards as layed out in the Hague accords, which basically say that the rules apply when there is a declared war between signatories of the accord, which IIRC the US is not, but they observe the general rule, subject to JAG interpretation.

So, issuing hollow points in such a situation would be allowed, dependent on the JAG interpretation, but usually, they restrict the issue to those with the greatest need.

The Sierra MatchKing has a hollow point, due to a manufacturing process, it is not nor has it ever been an aid to expansion, unlike the 165 Sierra Gameking, which is available in HP form and expands rather well at similar velocity to the 168 SMK.
 
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Limeyfellow

New member
The US signed at the Hague convention IV of 1907 which included

"it is especially forbidden - To employ arms, projectiles, or material {sic} calculated to cause unnecessary suffering;".

It didn't sign in the earlier convention in 1899 about bullets that expand or flatten easy in the human body however has always agreed to follow the rules put down in it.

In Sept 85 JAG ruled that you could use hollow point sniper ammo for counter terrorist operations. It didn't state anything about using it in handguns.

The only time I seen JHP being issued was in 1993 when SOCOM bought some Winchester 230-grain JHP for use with the HK Mk 23 Mod 0 pistol. Of course thats considerably later on than the timeframe you gave.
 
M

Mueller

New member
Actually, on September 23 of 1985 opinion by JAG authored by W. Hayes Park, Chief of JAG's International law branch, for the signature of Major Hughes R Overholt which stated

"expanding point ammunition is legally permissible in counter terrorist operations not involving the engagement of the armed forces of another state"

October 12 1990, another memorandum was issued in regards to the SMK bullet, clarifying it's status at the request of USSOCOM

1993 in another Parks authored opinion cleared the way for purchase of 230 gr Black Talon for issue with the H&K MK23.

So the use of HP ammo is authorized for use and issue under certain conditions.
 
A

Anon

New member
Getting back to the orginal post, though, I can't imagine that it's possible to have armor-piercing handgun ammunition.
 
A

Anon

New member
Hey Ausserordeutlich, stop using words that make me have to go look them up! ;)























(Especially when the word is used incorrectly! :rolleyes: ;) )
 
M

Mike Irwin

Staff
"I can't imagine that it's possible to have armor-piercing handgun ammunition."

Sure it is.

The bullet just has to be constructed for it.

Take, for example, the KTW bullet, designed specifically to penetrate bullet resistant vests and light armor.

It's the fabled "teflon" bullet. The teflon was there only to cover the "bullet," which was a milled penetrator made out of hardened steel or bronze, and allow it to grip the rifling, not to aid in penetration.

In the 1920s and 1930s Remington and Winchester both came out with metal piercing ammunition specifically for use by police against automobiles. Supposedly that stuff will also do a job against light vests.
 
C

Caeser23

New member
"expanding point ammunition is legally permissible in counter terrorist operations not involving the engagement of the armed forces of another state"

so then technically we could use it in Iraq and Afghanistan since we're not fighting forces of any state, the hell with the geneva conventions anyway, they need rewrite it or throw it out the window alltogether :barf:
 
I

IZHUMINTER

New member
FWIW: There is no 4th Ranger Battalion (1/75th, 2/75th, and 3/75th Infantry only).
Click to expand...

With all due respect, Chindo18Z, you are partially incorrect.

Yes, the 75th has only 3 Bns. However, there are 3 more Ranger Bns in the US Army.

The 4th Ranger Training Bn (RTB) is part of the Ranger Training Brigade, and runs the "crawl" phase of Ranger school at Fort Benning; it was reactivated back in '86, along with 5th and 6th Bns, when the 75th Ranger Regt was created. Members of 4th RTB have won the "Best Ranger Competion" almost as many times as guys from the 75th Ranger Regt...and the current US Army Infantry Center CSM is a former CSM of the 4th RTB.
 
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Ausserordeutlich

Moderator
In deference to Anon, due, primarily to his "junior" status, I'll try to refrain from extra-sesquipedalian behavior, even when such behavior is done in a "correct" manner. :)
 
A

Anon

New member
Good one, Ausser!
thumbs.gif
I still want you to admit that the carpenter wasn't being evasive, he was probably just misinformed or bragging. :p
 
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