Triple 7 and Filler Question

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mg66

New member
First of all I must say I am new to this forum so, 'hello to all'. And I am also relatively new to black powder cap and ball shooting.

I am using a Uberti New Army steel frame and am going to try Triple 7 fffg by Hodgdon. The loads I want to use are 20-24 grains , a wonder wad with a Hornady .454" ball.

Hodgon have a safety warning to use NO filler. I even rang up Hodgdon and confirmed this.

Anyone have any thoughts on using filler on top of wad or should I say between wad and ball. Or should I not use any filler which will seat the ball further into the cylinder chamber?

Will seating the ball further into the cylinder chamber have any dire consequences to pressures and safety?
 
R

Remington kid

New member
First off 20g is a light load for that Revolver but nothing wrong with that for target shooting or a starting load. You may want to go with 30g with that powder and it wont hurt a thing.
You don't need fillers and they were not used in the old days at all and wads came along later also. The wad is good because it does help sweep out the barrel.
Make sure you place some lube over the ball as well. It does help cut down on chain fires and some people feel that if you use a wad you don't need the lube but the lube helps keep the fouling down and makes you revolver run a little smoother.
You will not find any less accuracy as a a rule by not using any filler and you really don't need it so why ad more to the loading process.
Powder, wad, ball and grease will work great for your Army. When you ram the ball down make sure you press it down all the way....until it wont move anymore. With that load and powder you will probably run out of ram but that's fine because you will be seated enough and the powder compacted enough to work just fine.
Have fun and leave the cereal fillers for breakfast and the grass seed for spring lawn repair:) Mike
 
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Wayner

New member
I'd recommend using FFg 777 powder. The FFFg is too hot in my opinion and you'll get good service out of the FFg.The FFg 777 is hotter than FFFg blackpowder which is the standard to go by. That would reason then that FFFg 777 is even hotter yet. The loads that Hodgdon gives off thier web site using FFFg 777 are too hot in my opinion and could reduce the longevity of your gun. I say use the loads from Hodgdon's site but replace FFFg with FFg. Using filler with 777 powder being a no-no must have a reason but I don't know what the reason is. The use of the FFg 777 will get the ball closer to the top of the chamber. Using the FFFg 777 a person would have to assertain whether of not the plunger of the gun gets the ball on the powder. Rule...ball always has to be seated on the powder with no airspace between the two. Air space lets the gases expand in the space and then abruptly hit the ball which then acts like a bore obstruction and spikes the pressures up. Better to follow the manufacturers recommendations I contend. That's my two cents worth.:D
 
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Wayner

New member
Hello Remington Kid. How is ya? Looks like we were typing at about the same time answering this post.:D Different people have different opinions uh? When I tested the 777 powder I used FFFg at first even though I had read in a testing from a gun magazine that FFg 777 is hotter than FFFg blackpowder. I could tell from shooting the FFFg seemed a little too hot to me. It was a straight shooter powder for sure but from the recoil and the loading lever dropping down on my 1851 Colt Uberti and the "quick" deformation of my bnarrel wedge I figured the powder was a little too hot. The load was 20gr. FFFg I first used to test. I went down to 15gr. FFFg 777 and that seemed alright. When I did use the FFg 777 and 20gr. of it the load seemed better suited to the gun to me. Of course an 1851 Colt ain't no Remington and neither is an 1860 Colt ya know what I mean? I elt like the FFFg 777 was like using FFFFg blackpowder but the FFFg felt like more pressure to me. I would think 30gr. FFFg would be kind of hot in a Uberti 1860 Colt and would really play havoc on the wedge and arbor after awhile of using it.I figure since the FFg 777 is hotter than FFFg blackpowder it's best,at least in a Colt, to stick with that and not go hotter yet by using FFFg 777. I mean since FFFg black is plenty hot and FFg 777 is even hotter than using FFFg could be saved for some hunting applications where more velosity is needed. You know like if hunting wild boars or middlin sized deer and such. I shoot an 1860 Colt Uberti and settled on 25gr. FFg 777 and get good service from that load which is hotter than my nominal load of 26-28 gr. FFFg blackpowder Qoex. What's your take on that Bud? I surmise that you have a slightly different take on the 777 stuff since you shoot Remingtons alot. A Colt just ain't no Remington that's for sure. Not as sturdy of a construction to a Colt.
 
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mg66

New member
Thanks for the replies.

Is this correct, FFG burns slower and thus colder than FFFG. And therefore FFG requires more powder to obtain a silmilar velocity?

Assuming the above, what sort of loads of load of Triple Seven FFG would I need to use. I must add here I am not looking at max loads. Or if anyone can suggest a load using Triple Seven it would be greatly appreciated. Thanx.
 
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Remington kid

New member
MG66, There are a few people on here and other sites who Can tell you more about the 777 than I can but I can tell you this. Just as Wayner posted above it is much hotter than say Goex 3f and the 7772f is still hotter than Goex 3f but not quite as bad as 777 3F.
That being said I have been using Pyrodex "P" and loading it by volume the same as my Goex 3f and have had no problems at all in my Remington .44 or my Navy Colt .36.
I'm loading the Remington .44 with 40g of Pyrodex"P" , .454 ball and grease on top and it will make your ears ring but it's still very accurate. This is a load that I only use for hunting and for target shooting I like 30g of Pyrodex"P" or Goex 3f when I can get it.
For my 51 Navy I'm using 22 g. of Pyrodex"P" and a .380 ball and If I had Goex 3F I would load the same volume.This gives me great accuracy but so does 25g of Pyrodex"P". Never had a problem shooting any of these loads.
In the old days the instructions from colt was something like this.....
Fill the cylinder with powder leaving enough room for a ball and do not use a wad or filler. Simple and it worked and the metal was not as good as todays revolvers. They never specified what powder and in fact excluded a wad or filler or grease.
The grease over the ball and wads and so on came about latter after a few of the revolvers blew up due to multable chain fires:)

Now to answer your other question....yes, 777 2F is less potent than 777 3F.
But I would also like to say this...If you haven't bought the powder yet than go with Goex 3f if you can get it and if not then go with Pyrodex"P" . If you can't find either of them then I would go with the 777 2f and stick with 30g of any of them for target. Remember we do not measure any black powder or the subs. by weight, it must be by volume! Hope I haven't confused you,:) Mike
 
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Remington kid

New member
Wayner, I agree with what your saying and I have not used the 777 3F nor do I have any desire to use it in my Revolvers:) That being said there are several guy's on here who swear by the stuff and they use 30g 777 3F in there Remington's with no problems so far and some even use .40g of 7773F for a hunting load :eek: Not my thing for sure!
I do like .40 of Pyrodex "P" for hunting and this next season I will be shooting .40 of "P" with a 200g conical for Deer.
The Pyrodex "P" does give a little more velocity than Goex 3F but it's not enough to hurt anything in my openion. As I stated to mg66 I use this powder
the same as my beloved Goex 3F but it's getting really harder to get all the time :( This Pyrodex "P" is growing on me and I can't see any difference in the accuracy on my Remingtons but I haven't shot and Goex 3f from my Navy yet. The "P" gives good smoke and smells bad too so I guess it's close to my favorite Goex 3F:) Mike
 
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Remington kid

New member
Wayner, Thanks for the link and the info but when the old man who owns my favorite powder store retired we all thought it was over for our Goex supplier. Now we found out that his son will be running the store and nothing will change. He is going to carry it all just like good old Dad:) They should be back up and running full speed at the end of the month. Mike

PS "percussion revolver shooter extraordinair" If that were true I would be rich like some of you all instead of just good looking and retired:)
 
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Low Key

New member
mg66...

Hello and welcome! I've used 777 in my Pietta 1858 replica off and on for 6 months, what I have is fffg. 20-24gr is a good target load and you won't over tax anything on your revolver using that load. I've used 25gr as a target load and have used filler over the powder a few times, but it didn't do anything for my accuracy one way or the other so I gave up on that.

As the others have said, you can use ffg granulation and it will give lower velocities and pressures than the fffg so you could fill your chambers a bit more and bring the ball up closer to the mouth that way. Using ffg I would say that up to 35gr would be a safe max load for the 58 steel frame, 30gr would be more conservative and still have the ball seated not too far down in the chamber.

The thickness of the wad you use will affect how deep that ball will seat in the chamber also. If you were doing some real long range work, like 75 yards or more, then I would be concerned about every detail of loading to improve my accuracy. But for 25 yrd or less, the depth the ball is seated in the chamber will not really affect accuracy that much unless you are trying to put 6 shots in the same hole.
 
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mg66

New member
Quote Low Key ... "what I have is fffg. 20-24gr is a good target load and you won't over tax anything on your revolver using that load."

So probably up to a 28-30 grain load would probably be a max limit on a steel frame 58 in excellent condition. With that said I will probably stick to about 24-25 grain, only shoot falling plate up to 25 yards.

Do you have a problem with plunger length on a 24 or 25 grain load, seating wad and/or ball. I normally use a Pietta loading tool if anyone is familiar with them and wonder if plunger length is sufficient on it also...guess I could just push a wad with no powder into chamber and use a vernier to calculate if there is enough plunger length both on the gun and loading tool.

At this time target is all I am shooting. When it comes to handgun hunting I use a Dan Wesson 6" .357 Mag with 16 grains of 296. Doesn't mean I wont ever use my 58 for hunting. It could well be a blast (excuse the pun) during deer muzzleloader season :)
 
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Low Key

New member
I've shot 30gr of 3f 777 quite often and had no problems, so you should be fine with that. Hogedons site says to duplicate the velocities of BP loads to reduce the volume of 777 by 15%. So lets overestimate, and say that 777 gives you 20% more velocity than BP at a given volume. So if you are shooting 30gr of 777, it would give you velocities in the same range as 36gr of BP. I've shot 40gr Goex loads with no problem and also 40gr of pyrodex p, so you're in the safety zone with 30gr of 777 in a steel frame 1858. I don't go beyond 30gr of 777 so I stay in that safety zone.

With 25gr loads, my rammer on the pistol is at the extent of it's reach so if I went below that with say 20gr, I'm not sure that I'm not leaving airspace so 25gr is my minimum load.
 
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mg66

New member
You have all been very helpful to a relatively new CB shooter. It is very much appreciated. Thanx :)
 
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Remington kid

New member
Just one other thing I would like to mention here. Not all revolvers are alike and not all of them like the same loads. After you have your new Remington working well and smooth you may want to try different loads with different powder and doing so from a bench rest. That way you will get a real picture of what it likes and both of you will be happy:D , Have fun, that's what it's all about, Mike
 
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Weird Guy

New member
As I understand it, powders were meant for this sort of thing.

The "F" stands for how Fine the granules of gunpowder are.

1F is large stuff, typically used in cannons.
2F is smaller grains, used in muskets .50 caliber and over
3F is even smaller grains, used in small muskets and handguns between .30 and .50 caliber
4F is the smallest grain of gunpowder. It is used in really small handguns like deringers and pocket revolvers, and as the priming pan charge in a flintlock (that is to say a musket loaded with 2F in the barrel, 4F in the pan, and the flint sparks the frizzen and sets off the 4F, which sets off the main charge of 2F inside the barrel).

The guy selling the revolver is just worried about lawsuits when you load a gun with both gunpowder and something else. You can use filler. Just think about it for a second. If it won't clog the gun up solid, but let the expanding gas of the gunpowder out the muzzle, then the filler will get blown out the barrel if you fire the gun. My revolver instruction books from Pietta and Ruger mention that you can use Corn Meal as a filler material.
 
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Pahoo

New member
777

New to this site. Attended a course persented by the NMLR ass. They taught using fill or buffer (corn meal) This did not seam completely right with me so I use no filler and instead choose to use a well lubed buffer wad on top of the powder. I do not use 777 as I only shoot for fun and it is too hot. Instead I use Pioneer or clean shot. I load 20 and 30 grains of 3F as well as 2F and have great results. Have fun and shoot safe ..... Pahoo
 
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