Traveling to California with a Beretta 92FS 9mm

[jimpeel]

I have a small, lockable, metal box that will contain the slide, barrel, return spring, etc.; but the frame won't fit. I want to stay legal but that is always a challenge in Kali.

Am I good with the slide and it's components locked up or will they claim that the frame, being the true "firearm" is not legal? By the by, I'm also taking my hi-cap mags; but they should be legal as long as I don't leave them there or lend them out. No intention of doing either.

Any advise besides "Don't go to Kali!!!"?

I'll be entering the belly of the Beast tomorrow.

 

[sigcurious]

Leave the standard capacity (over 10) magazines at home, they are not legal. I would not chance leaving the frame outside of a locked container. It is the firearm legally. A $20 lockable pistol case is a small expense compared to getting into trouble for a firearms violation.

 

[danez71]

Listen to sigcurious.

You mags are not legal to bring in. (thats a period there)

(there is an odd ball exception or two but theres a 99.99999% it doesnt apply to you)

You could bring in the mags if you disassembled them as at that point they are considered 'parts kits'. But as soon as they're assembled, you're breaking CA law.

Part of their mag law say that you can not import magazines over 10 rounds. If you owned over 10 round mags in CA before the ban, you can keep them. But, importing pre-ban mags is still illegal.



A soft case with locked zippers is fine if you have one of those. A small back pack even with locked zippers even.


If you want to stay CA legal, both parts of your plan are not going to do it.


Staying legal in CA is not hard. You already knew that the gun frame was considered the firearm.



BTW - California is spelled with a "C" and not a "K".

 

[Frank Ettin]

I concur completely with sigcurious and danez71.

[1] Keep the gun together but pick up an inexpensive gun rug you can put a small pad lock on. Transport the pistol, unloaded, locked in the gun rug.

[2] Bring the standard capacity magazines into California is importation and a felony. You may disassemble them, but you won't be able to re-assemble them in California. That would be "manufacturing a large capacity magazine" and a felony.

BTW - California is spelled with a "C" and not a "K".

So we're clear and for everyone's information --

"Creative spelling" of the names of States, public figures or anyone/anything else for the purpose of making a political comment is not acceptable here.

 

[Mr. James]

Please, why are we conceding the field to the California legislature in calling a 10-round magazine "standard capacity" for this firearm?

Let the hoplophobes define the terms? Lose the debate.

Beretta 92FSs are designed to have a "standard capacity" of 15 rounds. Not 10. Ten is midget capacity; retarded capacity; diminished capacity, barely-sufficient capacity, statist approved (for now) capacity, whatever.

I'm quibbling here, but it gets my Irish up when gun retailers pump us up with claims of offering us "high cap mags." I was surprised to see that term used so freely here.

Rubbish. "Standard capacity" is what the firearm was designed for. To accept less as "standard" is an abuse of language.

I'm not questioning the need to comply with local laws, and jimpeel needs to embrace his inner 10-rounder, or face the consequences. But let's acknowledge that we're being permitted to work with . . . Cooper Mini capacity?

 

[sigcurious]

Who is we?

 

[Frank Ettin]

Please, why are we conceding the field to the California legislature in calling a 10-round magazine "standard capacity" for this firearm?...

I don't see how you could possibly read sigcurious' or my post that way.

We use "standard capacity" to refer to the usual magazine designed and offered with the pistol -- be it 8 rounds, 10 rounds, 12 rounds, 15 rounds, etc.
We prefer that term over large or high capacity magazine to avoid reinforcing the perception that there is something strange of exotic about a magazine that holds 17 rounds.

 

[jimpeel]

Thanks to all for the info.

a. We called California "Kali" even when I lived there. It's an inside joke.

b. I was born in California and this firearm was originally purchased there. I acquired it prior to the restrictions being implemented. I saw all of this coming so I left.

c. The term "import" does not mean "traveling through." There is no intention to bring the magazines into the state with the intention of leaving them there; and taking them with me when I go is not exporting them either. They are merely traveling with me through the state with every intention of their returning to Colorado with me. I'm too lazy to do the research to find the "For the purposes of this statute, "import" shall mean ..."; but I'm sure it's in there somewhere.

d. I have concluded my business there; and I am now sitting in a hotel in the free state of Arizona firearm and magazines intact.

Thanks again.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

c. The term "import" does not mean "traveling through." There is no intention to bring the magazines into the state with the intention of leaving them there; and taking them with me when I go is not exporting them either. They are merely traveling with me through the state with every intention of their returning to Colorado with me. I'm too lazy to do the research to find the "For the purposes of this statute, "import" shall mean ..."; but I'm sure it's in there somewhere.

You were lucky. The word "import" means to bring into the state.

 

[jimpeel]

Then, by that standard, I imported my vehicle and all of its contents, including my person and the persons with me.

I did not have to stop at the Port of Entry; and I was not charged any import duties or fees. The same goes for when I "exported" all of the above from CA and "imported" them to AZ.

 

[Frank Ettin]

We called California "Kali" even when I lived there. It's an inside joke....

Nonetheless, we don't do it here.

...The term "import" does not mean "traveling through."...

[1] As Aguila Blanca pointed out, "import" means to bring into. It doesn't matter whether one is passing through or staying for an indefinite period of time.

[2] It doesn't look like you were just not passing through. You titled this thread "Traveling to California"; based on the first post, you entered California on 26 August. You're in Arizona on 28 August. You wrote in post 8:

...I have concluded my business there...

If you went to California for a purpose, accomplished that purpose and left, that is not "passing through."

...by that standard, I imported my vehicle and all of its contents, including my person and the persons with me....

Actually, yes you did.

...I did not have to stop at the Port of Entry; and I was not charged any import duties or fees. The same goes for when I "exported" all of the above from CA and "imported" them to AZ...

And that's irrelevant.

Everyone: Please be advised that the fact that jimpeel did not suffer any adverse legal consequences doesn't validate his reasoning. It only means that he didn't get caught. Please be further advised that if one follows his example, it might not work out so well.

 

[jimpeel]

My, my, Frank. You certainly are enamored of big red letters.

If traveling with a firearm into the state to conduct a day's business is an "importation" then Title 18, Part I, Chapter 44, Section 926a means N-O-T-H-I-N-G. Since when does state law preempt federal statute?

My firearm was cased in a key-locked metal box and the ammo was cased in a separate key-locked case. Neither were accessible to the driver or passengers.

I guess when you are acclimated to walking on eggshells you take the meaning of the laws to the farthest extremes even redefining the meaning of words. I will do some research and get back to everyone.

The federal laws, however, are very clear on what constitutes an import or importer:

(9) The term "importer" means any person engaged in the business
of importing or bringing firearms or ammunition into the United
States for purposes of sale or distribution; and the term "licensed
importer" means any such person licensed under the provisions of
this chapter.

...

(E) as applied to an importer of firearms, a person who devotes
time, attention, and labor to importing firearms as a regular
course of trade or business with the principal objective of
livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the
firearms imported; and
(F) as applied to an importer of ammunition, a person who
devotes time, attention, and labor to importing ammunition as a
regular course of trade or business with the principal objective
of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the
ammunition imported.

(22) The term "with the principal objective of livelihood and
profit" means that the intent underlying the sale or disposition of
firearms is predominantly one of obtaining livelihood and pecuniary
gain, as opposed to other intents, such as improving or liquidating
a personal firearms collection: Provided, That proof of profit
shall not be required as to a person who engages in the regular and
repetitive purchase and disposition of firearms for criminal
purposes or terrorism.

-CITE-
18 USC Sec. 926A 01/03/2012 (112-90)

-EXPCITE-
TITLE 18 - CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE
PART I - CRIMES
CHAPTER 44 - FIREARMS

-HEAD-
Sec. 926A. Interstate transportation of firearms

-STATUTE-
Notwithstanding any other provision of any law or any rule or
regulation of a State or any political subdivision thereof, any
person who is not otherwise prohibited by this chapter from
transporting, shipping, or receiving a firearm shall be entitled to
transport a firearm for any lawful purpose from any place where he
may lawfully possess and carry such firearm to any other place
where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm if, during
such transportation the firearm is unloaded, and neither the
firearm nor any ammunition being transported is readily accessible
or is directly accessible from the passenger compartment of such
transporting vehicle: Provided, That in the case of a vehicle
without a compartment separate from the driver's compartment the
firearm or ammunition shall be contained in a locked container
other than the glove compartment or console.

-SOURCE-
(Added Pub. L. 99-360, Sec. 1(a), July 8, 1986, 100 Stat. 766.)


-MISC1-
PRIOR PROVISIONS
A prior section 926A, added Pub. L. 99-308, Sec. 107(a), May 19,
1986, 100 Stat. 460, provided that any person not prohibited by
this chapter from transporting, shipping, or receiving a firearm be
entitled to transport an unloaded, not readily accessible firearm
in interstate commerce notwithstanding any provision of any
legislation enacted, or rule or regulation prescribed by any State
or political subdivision thereof, prior to repeal by Pub. L. 99-
360, Sec. 1(a).

EFFECTIVE DATE
Section effective on date on which Firearms Owners' Protection
Act, Pub. L. 99-308, became effective, see section 2 of Pub. L. 99-
360, set out as an Effective Date of 1986 Amendments note under
section 921 of this title.

-End-​

 

[Frank Ettin]

...If traveling with a firearm into the state to conduct a day's business is an "importation" then Title 18, Part I, Chapter 44, Section 926a means N-O-T-H-I-N-G. Since when does state law preempt federal statute?...

As a lawyer I can tell you that in this context 18 USC 926A means absolutely nothing. It provides (18 USC 926A):

...any person who is not otherwise prohibited by this chapter from transporting, shipping, or receiving a firearm shall be entitled to transport a firearm for any lawful purpose from any place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm to any other place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm...

All that is fine, but it has nothing to do with bringing high capacity (or standard capacity -- call them what you will) magazines into California.

...The federal laws, however, are very clear on what constitutes an import or importer...

And that's very nice too, but again has nothing to do with this situation. First, you need to cite and quote the correct statute. 18 USC 921(a)(E)(21) defines "engaged in the business of being an importer" as follows:

(21) The term “engaged in the business” means—
...

(E) as applied to an importer of firearms, a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to importing firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the firearms imported;​

...

That does not define "import" or "importer." That defines "engaged in the business of a firearms importer" for the purposes of federal law requiring certain licensing to do so.

...I guess when you are acclimated to walking on eggshells you take the meaning of the laws...

No. But when one has practiced law for over 30 years he comes to understand something about what the laws are, what they mean and how they're likely to be applied.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

-STATUTE-
Notwithstanding any other provision of any law or any rule or
regulation of a State or any political subdivision thereof, any
person who is not otherwise prohibited by this chapter from
transporting, shipping, or receiving a firearm shall be entitled to
transport a firearm for any lawful purpose from any place where he
may lawfully possess and carry such firearm to any other place
where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm if, during
such transportation the firearm is unloaded, and neither the
firearm nor any ammunition being transported is readily accessible
or is directly accessible from the passenger compartment of such
transporting vehicle: Provided, That in the case of a vehicle
without a compartment separate from the driver's compartment the
firearm or ammunition shall be contained in a locked container
other than the glove compartment or console.

That's the text of the FOPA. It covers the interstate transportation of firearms and would apply if you were transiting through California. However, you wrote that you went "to" California for business. You were not transiting through California, so the FOPA did not apply because your possession of magazines with a capacity greater than 10 rounds was not legal under California state law. Ergo, the FOPA qualifier of being able to "lawfully" possess the firearm(s) in the place where you begin and the place where you end the journey would render the FOPA inapplicable.

The bottom line is: You asked for advice, you were given advice, you ignored the advice. You were lucky; you didn't get caught. That makes you lucky. It does NOT make what you did legal, no matter how hard you try to justify it after the fact. Frank's purpose in using all those big, red letters, I suspect, is to alert other people that they should not hope to do the same thing in the belief that it's legal, because it isn't. The next guy might be lucky, too, but ... sooner or later ... somebody will get caught.

 

[K1500]

O.K., I may be traveling through California on a camping trip. Enter and camp for a couple of weeks in my trailer while on my way to Oregon. Assuming unloaded and locked up, etc, does FOPA allow me to bring in 15 round Glock mags and 30 round AR mags? If so, can i use them while in the state?

If not, is it ok to reduce them to parts and place all of the parts in a bag so I can put them back together when I leave California?

 

[Frank Ettin]

I may be traveling through California on a camping trip. Enter and camp for a couple of weeks in my trailer while on my way to Oregon....

That's not really traveling through since you'll be staying a while.

...does FOPA allow me to bring...

The FOPA doesn't apply because you're not traveling through. You're staying for a while. In any event, it wouldn't apply to the magazines.

...allow me to bring in 15 round Glock mags and 30 round AR mags? If so, can i use them while in the state?...

No, you may not bring them into California or use them in California. And you need to be sure that your AR is California legal (see the Calguns Wiki).

...If not, is it ok to reduce them to parts and place all of the parts in a bag so I can put them back together when I leave California? ...

Yes. Of course, you might want to bring some ten round magazines with you so you'll have useable magazines in California. Depending on where you camp, you might be able to keep a loaded gun at your campsite for protection, and there are ranges and public lands where you may shoot.

 

[K1500]

Thanks. I usually travel with a G20, Winchester 94, and the wife's model 60 revolver. I have traveled with an AR, but to tell you the truth, I have not brought it camping in a great while.

Since the G20 is the only offender, I will go with the parts in a bag approach. It is sad to see what has happened to a great state. I hope it gets turned around out there for you guys. I lived there for nearly 20 years but left long ago and have not kept up with the latest. I look forward to my trip.

 

[jimpeel]

All I know is that words mean things. Importing is not the same as possessing one's personal property unless there is an intent to sell or transfer those goods to a second party.

As late as May 2009, the Kentucky Appeals Court threw out a statute for vagueness over the term "importation" and whether it means "to bring in" or "to remain ․ for sale or personal use."

http://caselaw.findlaw.com/ky-court-of-appeals/1115255.html

In the case before us, we must scrutinize the legislature's use of the word “importation” in KRS 150.740. The statute does not define the word. The Commonwealth argues that its common, everyday meaning is “to bring in.” However, Mr. Looper relies on the recitation by the trial court that an alternate common meaning is to bring in “to remain ․ for sale or personal use.” Brief for Appellee, Trial Court's Order at p. 19. (Emphasis added.)

Black's Law Dictionary defines importation as “[t]he bringing of goods into a country from another country.” 759 (7th ed.1999). Another definition is “the act or practice of importing[.]” Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary 582 (10th ed.2002). Like the trial court, we find it necessary to look to the definition of the root word import. The pertinent definition in Black's Law Dictionary is “[t]he process of bringing foreign goods into a country.” 759 (7th ed.1999). We also find “to bring from a foreign or external source; esp: to bring (as merchandise) into a place or country from another country [.]” Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary 582 (10th ed.2002) (emphasis in original). Merchandise is defined as “the commodities or goods that are bought and sold in business.” Ibid. From these definitions, we discern a connotation of business interest underlying the activity of bringing in particular goods.

Federal courts have recognized the commercial implications of the word import. Most discussions of its meaning occur in the context of taxes and tariffs. The United States Customs Court of Appeals succinctly set the standard definition as follows:

Imported merchandise is merchandise that has been brought within the limits of a port of entry from a foreign country with intention to unlade, and the word “importation” ․ unless otherwise limited, means merchandise to which that condition or status has attached.

U.S. v. Estate of Boshell, 14 U.S.Cust.App. 273, 275 (1922) (emphases added). See also, U.S. v. Commodities Export Co., 733 F.Supp. 109, 14 C.I.T. 166 (Ct of Int'l Trade, 1990); Page & Jones v. U.S., 26 C.C.P.A. 124 (Cust. & Pat.App., 1938); U.S. v. Watches, Watch Parts, Calculators, & Misc. Parts, 692 F.Supp. 1317 (S.D.Fla.1988); Sherwin-Williams Co. v. U.S., 38 C.C.P.A. 13 (Cust. & Pat.App., 1950). By their definition, merely transporting an item through an area is not the same as importing it. Though KRS 150.740 does not govern tariffs, various courts' interpretations of the tariff statutes demonstrate that it would be reasonable for a defendant to have believed that as long as he did not unload cervids in Kentucky, he would not be importing them. Transitory passage through or across is not synonymous with the introduction or placement of goods for a specific purpose. The statute does not provide any limitation on the common meaning of importation.

 

[Frank Ettin]

All I know is that words mean things. Importing is not the same as possessing one's personal property unless there is an intent to sell or transfer those goods to a second party....

No, you don't know what words mean. See Merriam-Webster.com (emphasis added):

2 : to bring from a foreign or external source...

See Perrin v. United States, 444 U.S. 37 (1979), at 42:

...A fundamental canon of statutory construction is that, unless otherwise defined, words will be interpreted as taking their ordinary, contemporary, common meaning...

...As late as May 2009, the Kentucky Appeals Court...

A decision by a Kentucky court of appeal has no application or meaning in California.

 

[jimpeel]

As a lawyer, would you use that decision as precedent in a case brought in CA in your party's defense?