Trapdoor Springfield with modern ammo

[mikejonestkd]

I just found a 1873 trapdoor that managed to follow me home today. The previous owner typically shot cowboy pressure ammo though it. I am looking forward to shooting it tomorrow but didn't have any ammo loaded for this cartridge.
My brother has a few boxes of new winchester ballistic silvertip 300 gr ammo with the flex tip bullet. Are they safe to shoot in this relic?

 

[Scorch]

Typically, modern 45-70 smokeless ammo is loaded to be safe in the Trapdoor Springfields. That said, I have seen a few over the years that self-disassembled with mild smokeless loads. If in doubt, use BP or cowboy action loads.

 

[Art Eatman]

SFAIK, the standard Winchester or Remington ammo is loaded down to Trapdoor pressures. I'd be uncomfortable with--and would avoid--any other brand, given my own level of ignorance.

 

[Bimus]

Looking through 45-70 ammo and found a box of Hornady .
On THE box
NOTICE Hornady cartridges are manufactured to be fired in firearms witch are in good condition and designed and chambered for this cartridge.

45-70 GOVT 325 gr FTX LEVERevolution muzzle velocity 2050 fps
I would think to much for a trapdoor ?

 

[ligonierbill]

Flextip, Leverevolution, etc are aimed at lever action guns like the Marlins and Winchesters. Every load manual I have lists 3 levels: Trapdoor, modern lever and Ruger No.1. Are the modern lever action rounds safe in an old Trapdoor? I don't know. I strongly suggest you contact the ammo manufacturer.

The problem, of course, is you will be fine until you're not. Blackpowder and blackpowder substitute ammo is available. I roll my own with Alliant Black MZ. Why take a risk?

 

[CLYA]

Looking through my Hornady reloading handbook, the maximum loads for trapdoor (level one) is 1600 fps., using 325g FTX bullets. For the Marlin, which is level two, it's 2100 fps. So no, the 325 LeverRevolution is too much.

 

[mikejonestkd]

Thanks for the input everyone.
Dies, lead, and brass are on the way, and I should have them by next weekend.

I found some cowboy level ammo tonight for it, and will take it to the range tomorrow.

 

[Road_Clam]

45-70 GOVT 325 gr FTX LEVERevolution muzzle velocity 2050 fps
I would think to much for a trapdoor ?

Years ago when I purchased my 1884 TD I asked the same question. The salesman said that most of your traditional factory 405 gr 45/70 ammo is safe to shoot in TD's. He also specifically commented do NOT shoot any Of the "lever gun" type ammo as it's loaded to higher pressures. I shot several boxes of the Federal blue box 405 gr jacketed ammo and had no issues. I've since gotten into casting and reloading BP for my TD and that is fun !

 

[mete]

Least anyone thinks that the standard load is poor - the 300 gr @ 1800 will work very well to 150 yds or more for deer! Actually that bullet at inside 50 yds is too soft for me ! In much of the east ranges are short .Average range is no more than 50 yds . I've been using the 300 Barnes with excellent results.

 

[mikejonestkd]

Just got back from the local range, its a heck of a neat rifle!
I had shot a few trapdoors over the years, but never really seriously considered buying one until this one fell in my lap yesterday.

factory 405 gr remington loads were mild and fairly accurate- 5 shots into 1.5" at 50 yards. the cowboy loads shot about the same, although the point of impact was off.

I am looking forward to spending more time with this Springfield!

 

[Road_Clam]

factory 405 gr remington loads were mild and fairly accurate- 5 shots into 1.5" at 50 yards. the cowboy loads shot about the same, although the point of impact was off.

That's the only real issue with the TD's , the fact the vernier sights are SO confusing. The typical "battle" setting is an approx 250-270 yd zero which ends up about 10" high at 100 yds. with a typical 405 gr bullet at 1300 fps. I purchased John Wolf's guide to the Trapdoors and it's an outstanding resource for understanding all aspects of function, reloading, and detailed sight info the TD rifles.

https://www.4570products.info/Loading-Cartridges-for-Original-45-70-Springfield-1.htm

 

[Mike Irwin]

Avoid jacketed bullets.

They can really do a number on the softer steels from that era.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

 

[mikejonestkd]

Avoid jacketed bullets.

I have a good number of 20-1 330 gr and 405 gr bullets on the way, this springfield will only get a diet of cast bullets for the next 50 years.

BTW it dates from 1878, acc to a few serial number searches

 

[Old Stony]

I've played with a few TD's over the years using Remington factory and all kinds of different handloads. I finally settled on a mid range load of IMR3031 with the 405's and called it good. I made a front sight or two also for some, as they are easy to replace and make the shoot to the height you want without really altering anything permanently. On my carbine I took a piece of brass and made one out of it...since it's just pinned in, it's an easy and worthwhile alteration.

 

[Mike Irwin]

"BTW it dates from 1878, acc to a few serial number searches"

Sweet, but as always...

This thread is useless without pictures!

 

[SIGSHR]

Black powder only in mine-I like that cloud of smoke. I have always heard modern smokeless burns much hotter than BP, another reason to avoid it.

 

[Mike Irwin]

"I have always heard modern smokeless burns much hotter than BP, another reason to avoid it."

Yes. Smokeless powders do burn hotter than black powder, and powders high in nitroglycerin burn hottest of all.

When Britain adopted the Lee Metford rifle in .303 with the shallow Metford rifling, the initial load for the .303 round was a pellet of compressed black powder.

That worked just fine.

But, a few years later Cordite was ready for prime time and black powder was dropped.

Early British Cordite burned insanely hot because it had an extremely high level of nitroglycerine, and within a few thousand rounds the throats and rifling in those soft steel Lee Metfords were being destroyed.

The British responded by adopting better barrel steels then in development, re-engineering Cordite to lower the amount of nitroglycerin in the formulation to give lower chamber temperatures on firing, and dropping the Metford rifling for traditional deep cut rifling, thus giving us the Lee-Enfield rifle.

 

[mikejonestkd]

A followup question on smokeless powder:
I have reloaded for the 45-70 in modern guns without much regard for the heat or the barrel steel.
I have H4895, 3031, 4064 and Varget to use for mild loads for this trapdoor. I plan on loading two different bullets- 300 gr RN hardcast and 20:1 45 gr BN 10 bullets.

Which powder is a good one to start with? I want to get a modest 1400 FPS out of the 300 gr load, and 1200 FPS out of the 405 gr load, all hopefully well below 18,000 CUP

 

[J.G. Terry]

Bullets for a TB

Bullets for a TD: I found out through experience that TD' have a generous groove diameter. My last TD had a .462 groove diameter. What worked best for me was the Lee 405gr. hollow base bullet. These bullets were cast from unalloyed lead. The lube was SPG. That Lee bullet was designed for TD's. Getting the ammo right allows these rifles to run at the true potential. Figure how a .458 diameter jacketed bullet would run in a .462 bore. YMMV

 

[44 AMP]

There are people who believe it is wrong to run anything but black powder in these old guns.

Modern ammo for them is loaded to "safe" pressure, but according to some people who are really involved with these old guns, modern smokeless loads while safe (in the blow up the gun sense) they aren't good for the gun, otherwise.

The old rifles fail (crack, not blow up) at a fairly constant rate, they say, and that rate is slightly higher when used with safe smokeless loads than when only black powder is used.

They say that while the max pressure in smokeless loads in in the safe range, the kind of pressure (duration, etc) is different enough from black powder to put an undue strain on the action of the very old guns.
(and again, we're not talking blow up, we're talking could fail (crack) sooner than it would shooting only black powder loads)

I don't know if its true, or not but if I owned an actual 1870s rifle, I wouldn't risk it.