Trailside/Hiking caliber

[Rovert]

I'm asking this question out of concern for a friend who carries her Glock 9mm while hiking, thinking it will be an adequate defense against bears, and other unwelcome visitors. I have done a search, but there are no elaborations on why any given caliber is, or is not, adequate, so your feedback is appreciated.

Originally, the gun was purchased as a self-defense weapon, because my friend is a mental health and substance abuse counsellor, and given the clientele, it stands to reason that if one of these guys goes loopy, she needs to protect herself. However, it seems she also feels that the 9mm out of a Glock is sufficient for trailside use. I tend to think not.

She just moved to Northeastern PA, in a very rural region north of the Allentown area, where the deer come every evening to graze in her back yard. My thinking is that where there are deer, there will no doubt be other denizens of the wilderness out there, specifically brown and black bears, possibly coyotes and mountain cat, as you get out of the settled areas.

I have indicated to her that a 9mm is sufficiently lethal for the human sort of pest, but for an animal as ornery and stocky as a bear, or large cat, that a beefier caliber is called for. Is my thinking correct, and if so, can you elaborate on why, specifically, a 9mm would not be adequate? What caliber would you suggest as an alternate self defense round while hiking? If another caliber gun is called for, what would you recommend?

Since she doesn't have internet access at the moment, I plan to print out your replies, and send it to her in the mail, so please be concise. I worry about her, thinking she's gonna go trompsing off into the woods and just manage to piss ol' smokey off by stinging him with a 9.

TIA!

 

[Ben Shepherd]

She should carry a can of bear mace as a first line of defense. Not the mace you buy for a mugger, but the type outfitters sell specifically for bears.

That being said:

In my opinion a 357 magnum, loaded with a stout 180 grain SWC, NOT a hollowpoint, is my personal minimum. I carry a 44 mag in bear country personally. Although ANY pistol caliber is at best a very poor second to a rifle.

It's a pure energy issue. A 9mm just doesn't posses enough energy to get to anywhere vital in something the size of a bear. And if you expect to have one chance in a million to survive this encounter. You better be able to get to something vital right now .

 

[Onslaught]

Where my father spends his "woods time" there is an island that a group of men go to fish, because it's remote and the fishing is good. Dad makes friends with everyone, and the game warden is now one of them. He told dad of two men who were fishing the year prior on this island, when one of them was approached (not attacked) by a black bear. In fear, one of the men emptied his Glock 9mm in the direction of the bear. This pissed the bear off greatly. The second man had come running when he heard the shots start, and killed the bear with a 30'06 rifle they keep on the boat.

Now I do believe the story, simply because it came from the park ranger, but I also believe (as he does) that these guys shouldn't have shot the bear, because the bear didn't actually attack them. They overreacted. But if the bear HAD attacked, the Glock 9mm would not have helped.

Anyway, if she likes Glocks, what about a 10mm? As far as pistols go, I guess it would be as good as most... 15 rounds in 5 seconds as opposed to 5 or 6 of 44 mag?

 

[Scarborough]

I too favour the .357 as a woods calibre if you don't want to have to deal with heavier recoil. Having said that I would think that Mr. Bear would not be doing real well if someone emptied 15 rds. of 9mm ball into his head. She is'nt unarmed.

 

[jimsbowies]

Never want to just P _ ss off your opponent

I've found from personal experience that even a poorly designed 44 mag round will typically just manage to piss off a large black bear.....happened to me some years ago....handgun hunting for black bear in the swamps of eastern north carolina. Shot that big boy in the chest area from a Ruger Blackhawk and (I swear) he just "swatted" at his chest and kept on eating berries....

And that was with a 44 mag! Had it been a 44 mag from a rifle with the increased muzzle velocity, might have been a different story and had the round been different, again maybe different story....I shot with a JHP....mistake!

If your friend is absolutely intent on using a mouse-gun for a bear-gun....then go with FMJ rounds....at least they stand some chance of penetration.......maybe the "sting" will ward off an angry bear though I doubt it....

Remember what those with far more experience say....avoid the bears whenever possible...if confronted, move slowly and never, never run from them....

If the Glock is going to be her choice of weapon, at least move up to a 40 or 45 or 357Sig.....

I still think of 9 "mike-mikes" as a Mouse gun caliber

 

[AC]

I'm with her

Whatever happened to the days when people hiked with a .22? Not good protection but lots of fun. How about all the hikers who are unarmed? I think they're naive too, but a 9mm Glock is a hell of a lot better than unarmed.

Chances are more likely she will have trouble with men or dogs than bears. I'd probably go to 147 gr loads for the woods.

I read somewhere that most blackbear attacks of women campers were at that time of the month, so you might want to pass that along FWIW.

 

[Oakleaf]

Open to critism of my credentials here -

1. Most dangerous animal in Scotland is my Spaniel ( scars to prove )

2. No legal handguns since 1997

However, I did shoot handguns extensively prior to that - and in particular taught ladies to shoot.

Concentrating on wildlife threats -

Observations -

1. Avoid the bear at all costs
2. If expecting to shoot a bear take .35 Whelen/ 375/ 460 etc etc in rifle form
3. Apart from shock of the noise, the only effective round is one that strikes an adequate ( and possibly the intended ) target, with sufficient energy or zone of destruction to inflict appropriate damage to that target.
4. Most effective tool is the best one you have on you at the time and can use properly.
5. 9mm is hard to justify in the proposed role and represents a real chance of inflaming a situation. The recommended MACE would probably be safer.
6. Confidence ( even misplaced ) has a major role to play. A Casull .454 / Linebaugh .475 may be a better choice on paper - but not if the lady in question hates/ can't shoot it and soon stops carrying.


If the format of the Glock is comfortable, I would suggest a compromise of a 10mm model - with compensator to tame the thing. Load it with a stiff round of known performance.

Better effectiveness would come from a suitable calibre carbine - eg 45-70 Marlin. Depends on how weapon focussed she is whilst walking.

G & A did a test about ten years back for 'bear stoppers'. I think they trialled a Redhawk .44, Scattergun 12g and a 45-70 Marlin. Can't recall the outcome. In any event, even as a shooter, that armoury seemed a lot of trouble for 'a walk in the woods'.

Finally, tried 45-70 on the Spaniel ... thats how I got the scars

 

[Mad Man]

Carrying a handgun for protection against bears is a bad idea.

It is more likely that the bear will take the gun away from your friend and use it against her.

Instead, she should study some feminist empowerment techniques, like learning to yell "No!" really loud.

 

[JohnK]

If bears are a serious concearn then I think the 9mm is pretty light. Especially if it's loaded with human defensive loads that are usually designed NOT to penetrate deeply, exactly the opposite of what you want for bear defense.

Ben's suggestion of a heavily loaded 357 with 180gr + bullets is a good one, I'd agree that that is about the minimum for black bear and not enough for Grizzlys.

One gun that I've thought about a lot lately for this role is the 41 Magnum Tracker from Taurus. It's medium (357 magnum) sized, 5 shot 41 mag. It would be superior to the 357, other than being 1 round short, still good for defense against humans, reasonable size. If the recoil isn't a problem for her it might make an ideal choice for this job.

AC's point that she's far far more likely to encounter feral dogs (or people) than bears is also important. How many bear attacks are there in that area? Is it truely something to worry about?

 

[dsk]

I carry a handgun trailside all the time. Key requirements are:

*Effective caliber against man and smaller beasts like cougars.
*Light weight.
*Corrosion-resistant finish. You'll likely get caught in heavy downpours, fall into a creek, or simply sweat on it a lot.
*Reliability. It may get gunked up, so it still needs to shoot.
*Decent accuracy. A threating animal needs precice shot placement, because it is usually a lot tougher to take down than a human.

Note that I said nothing about bears. ANY handgun is a poor choice against bears. A .454 Casull might be adequate, but even then you need excellent shot placement and a backup plan! Bear spray is a better choise, or else carry a 12ga. shotgun and some slugs.

 

[jmlv]

While a bit light for bears

the 9mm is more than up to the task for the rest including a couger if you should be lucky(unlucky?) enough to see one. The puma is generally small as "big" cats go a large male is 175lb and a female less so, say 135lb or so. a decent 9mm hollow point will do the job. They are not that hard to kill. Dog hunters prefer a 22 magnum for the job. She should use something she would use for a 200lb human. This should work well for just about any critter she should encounter. Except the bears. In reality there is not much chance of seeing a bear in pa. They are just not that many of them avaiable. Just ask my friends who have been hunting them for 10 years and never got a shot! <VBG>. (Not sure if that a bear problem or a beer problem) If a black bear wants you he is more than likely HUNGRY and YOU are on the menu. In this case the least I would want is a 41 magnum loaded with heavy cast bullets. (the Taurus Tracker really shines here and I really want one in stainless) But really anything that will penatrate the skull is suffucent. Go for the eyes and dont stop untill he does.
(if a bear comes for you most likely he will be on you befour you can draw anyway. DO NOT PLAY DEAD WITH A BLACK BEAR HE WILL START TO EAT YOU! Unlike the griz which does not primarly attack for food rather defending his food or cubs etc. Blackie mostly attacks becouse he is hungry (excepting frmales with cubs)
In any case if you attacked by a black bear you are in deep trouble. Don't stop untill he is dead, no matter what.

 

[Steve Smith]

I recently made a similar decision

I recently had to decide on a "backpacking" gun for myself. Knowing that my wife and I and another couple plan to do a lot of hiking this year, including several overnighters and multi-day hikes, I had to come up with a better solution than I had in the past. (Solution in the past was that I went without a gun). Having done a good deal of BP'ing in the past, I knew I needed something really light, and really powerful. I also neede something very concealable, because if you've ever been around "outdoors types" you know that guns arent' they're favorite thing. I have a .45 Colt Bisley that I would not be afraid to use on a bear, but its just to heavy for hiking. I decided on the Glock 29. Several companies make "Norma level" loads still, and besides that, I handload, so getting the true 10mm horsepower is not a problem.

Granted, a 10mm is at the lower level of being "bear protection" but we make compromises everyday.

 

[riddleofsteel]

I read a story some years ago about a professional hunter. You know, the guy they call when a bear becomes a problem around a park or garbage dump. In the pre-politically correct days he hunted them down with dogs and killed them. His area was the northern U.S. mountains in Idaho, Montana, ect. It was a very interesting article. He told of killing large numbers of problem black bears and a few grizzlies. His primary weapon was a .45 Colt Blackhawk with a 7" barrel he wore in a side holster as he followed the dogs. He used his own hand loads that contained a heavy, hardcast SWC bullet with a maximum powder charge. Many of his stories reflect the tendancy of black bears to climb when chased and he often shot them out of trees or off of large rocks. He also had to follow some of them into dens and caves. Near the end of the story he told that his brother often hunted with him and he carried a lever action in .35 Remington.

I carry an identical setup whenever I am in the woods where a weapon is legal. A blued Ruger Blackhawk 7" chambered in .45 Colt with stag grips. With my handloads it will kill anything that walks this country. And it will do it as a lower pressure level that a .44 or .41 Mag. I am currently setting up a S&W mountain gun in .45 Colt with boot grips, night sights and a Kramer belt scabbard for outdoor carry where I have to conceal a weapon.

 

[DougB]

I've carried a Kel-Tec P11 9mm with FMJ ammo when backpacking in black bear country. I know it is a far from ideal caliber for bear, but I figure that there's maybe a 1% chance I'll need a gun at all, and if I do, it is far more likely to be for defense against people, mountain lions, dogs, rattlesnakes, etc. rather than bear. I think the 9mm will be adequate for any of these. If I ever had to shoot a bear, I think a 9mm in the head from close range is nearly as likely to kill as any other common handgun. And I don't think any common handgun is likely to have enough power to stop an attack with anything but a brain or spine shot. I know someone who killed a black bear in self defense with a .22 pistol. He shot it in the head at close range and it died very quickly. I also believe many bears have been killed over the years with .38s, 9mms, etc. by police officers and rangers. Of course I'd rather have a .44 magnum (or a rifle) if I PLANNED to shoot a bear, but given the odds, I've chosen to carry a light, compact, handy gun when backpacking and stream fishing.

That said, I did buy a Kel-Tec P40 hoping to get a little more power in the same sized package as my P11, but mine isn't reilable. I'm going to send it to Kel-Tec to see what they can do. I might also try a .357 Sig barrel for it.

I've also seriously considered a Glock 29 (only about 1/2 lb heavier than the Kel-Tec, and considerably more power and penetration). The Taurus Titanium Tracker also weighs about the same and is available in .357 or .41 magnum - which would certainly be more comforting if a bear were threatening. But, if your friend shoots the Glock well, but might be intimidated by a 10mm or magnum, she's probably better off with a gun she will practice with and can shoot accurately. I wouldn't be too worried about her and her Glock. Many here will say I'm vastly under-gunned with my Kel-Tec 9mm, but, I'm FAR better armed than about 95% of the other people I see backpacking and fishing (who are unarmed). And not too many of them seem to get eaten.

Doug

 

[treeprof]

There are no brown/griz in the eastern U.S., so there's no worry there. Also highly unlikely to be any cat bigger than a bobcat, and it's pretty rare even to see them. Black bear attacks or even nuisance food raids are pretty uncommon as long as you camp safe. I've spent many thousands of hours working in the eastern woods, and have carried almost exclusively for protection from 2 legged creatures.

That said, any revolver of .357 Mag and up would be fine (assuming full power .45 Colt loads). In an auto, I'd go for a Glock 20 with full house 10 mm loads, and a .40 barrel or downloaded 10 mm's for around the house. Do not underestimate the chance that a fmj bullet from a small caliber pistol would glance off even a black bear's head if you ever did need to shoot. Bears have notoriously hardy skulls.

 

[Oracle]

I'm with dsk in that I think that any handgun round is unlikely to be a good "bear-stopper", even the heavy ones such as .45 Colt, .44 Magnum, and .454 Casull. I've spent a lot of time backpacking and camping, and what do I carry? The same thing as your female friend, a Glock 9mm. Why? Because it's light, easy to carry (and every pound you can save really counts on the trail), concealable, and has a reasonable amount of firepower. It's basically a risk assessment: I'm much more concerned about the risk of harm from other people on the trail than from bears. It's sad, but there have been many reports that criminals have started using the trails in the eastern U.S. (such as the Appalachian Trail and others) as a way to hide out and move discreetly, as well as those who use out-of-the-way places and public lands as their personal drug manufacturing areas. If your friend is actually carrying a firearm on the trail (most people don't and it's generally highly discouraged by most backpacking and trail organizations), be happy of that fact, carrying a gun that is heavier and less concealable than what she carries now may discourage her from carrying at all.

 

[Erik]

Pistols chambered for 9mm are a poor choice relative to bear defense.

If your are limiting yourself to hanguns, then limiting yourself to those handguns chambered for cartridges beginning with ".4" is a wise course of action.

Black bears are known to do prey on humans. In this relatively rare scenario, a "stopper" is in order.

 

[JasonReed]

I'll throw in my thoughts.

I definitely wouldn't give her the impression that she's undergunned at the moment. IF she's gonna need the handgun it will almost certainly be for 2 legged critters, not bears. Is it possible that she'd be attacked by a bear? Sure. But the likelyhood is low enough that I wouldn't go buying another gun just for the possibility. Heck, it's also POSSIBLE that she could be set upon by a dozen heavily armed terrorists, so maybe she should consider carrying a CAR-15, body armor, and a full battle load. Considering that there have been zero bear fatalities in Pennsylvania in the last hundred years, the odds are probably similar. Not saying it couldn't happen (and I hope that didn't sound too sarcastic) just saying it's not worth worrying much about.

I'd say that if she just wants to buy another gun, more power to her. If she likes the Glock, go with 10mm. If she'll consider a revolver she oughta look at .357 (.38s for fun and plinking) or .44mag (.44spl for fun and plinking). But she's armed a lot better than most people right now.

 

[CapeFear]

I can't believe what I'm reading here. Do you know how long and hard you would have to try to get a bear to attack you in PA or NY? Maybe if you painted yourself in honey and slept beside a dumpster on a dead end dirt road you might get attacked. Have some of you actually ever been backpacking? Are you guys on the payroll of a handgun manufacturer? How did all the Indians ever manage to survive in the pre-Columbia wilderness of North America before the .454 Casull? Just lucky I guess.

Rovert, you friend is well armed for 99.9999% of backpacking in the Eastern US. I have backpacked in the most densely populated black bear areas of the East and never had a problem with them. I have even found bear tracks in a complete circle around my tent one morning. Its a matter of food discipline. Encourage your friend to always carry the Glock for short trips and well as long ones. The most dangerous part of backpacking is the trailhead and the varmits are all human. On the west side of Linville Gorge in NC 1 in 4 cars were broken into for almost a month until they caught the guilty party. One Boy Scout Troop was even robbed in the Uwharrie National Forest. There are dangers out there, but your friend is just about as likely to hit by a falling satellite as attacked by a black bear.

 

[Citadel99]

"There are no brown/griz in the eastern U.S., so there's no worry there. "

Treeprof,

Gotta disagree with you on this one. First, a friend of mine had a black bear "incident" while hiking the AT. Luckily he and his girlfriend came out of it unharmed after she spazzed out.

The last time I was backpacking near Franklin, NC, we were in a posted BEAR RESERVE the entire time. We came across both bear tracks and droppings. We were hiking in at about 0200 (looking for a campsite) and the dog, which had been sketched out for awhile, scared something big that crashed off like no deer I've ever heard. Not to mention that the park rangers had a posting at the head of the trail that stated there was a bear in area that had shown no fear of humans and had actually run off with backpacks from campsites! Now that gave us something to laugh about the first few miles.

That being said, I agree that hiking carry is mostly for two legged predators. The only thing you are going to do with a 9mm against a bear is make it mad. Hell, with a .240 all you're going to do is make it mad. If you're truly worried about bear, do yourself a favor and get a .45-70.

Mark