top piston vs. bottom piston

Kaylee

New member
Now, I know the M1 and all its "children" bleed the gas out the bottom of the barrel to work the action via an oprod.

BUt it also seems that virtually every (military, anyway) self loader these days bleeds the gas off the top. I'm presuming this is 'cause it's easier to deal with swapping detatchable magazines if there's not a gas system in the way.

So... are there any other weapons these days that bleed the gas off UNDER the barrel, other than the M1/M14/M1carbine/Minis, etc? And if so.. why?

Is there any real gain either way?
 

Badger Arms

New member
There is one more position you left out. It's the "in-line" piston. While it's true the gas is bled from the top in the AR-15, it's bled from the bottom in the AR-15 patent. Since the bolt is the piston and the carrier the cylinder, the recoil forces are in-line and do little to disrupt the sight picture. In Gene's own words:

A further object of this invention is to provide smoother operation and longer life of the working parts of the automatic rille mechanism. Since, in this invention, the actuating force is transmitted directly down the center line of the barrel and the bolt mechanism to the shoulder of the shooter, all of the off center loads found in most other types of gas actuated weapons are eliminated. It will therefore be obvious because of this factor that another object of this invention is to cut down on "climb" which occurs during automatic firing operations.
 

Badger Arms

New member
I'll add that virtually every gasshotgun bleeds from the bottom as does the Remington 74 series. The Ruger 44 Carbine, Winchester model 100?

If memory serves, the Steyr Aug bleeds from the side. Patent 4,191,089.
 

Gewehr98

New member
Another "inline" gas system...

Would be the annular gas piston found around the barrel of the Czech VZ-52 rifle. The piston cup and barrel are actually machined to fit each other. This technique was borrowed from the earlier German Mkb42(W). The gas port is still drilled into the bottom of the barrel, however. ;)
 
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Art Eatman

Staff in Memoriam
Stoner's sorta both right and wrong about the force of recoil. "The ankle bone's connected to the leg bone..." as the old song says. That is, the barrel is attached to the receiver; rearward of the attachment point is the "new" point of the center of recoil. To rephrase it a bit, there is indeed some benefit from mounting the barrel lower in the front of the receiver, but not as much as one might think. The mass of the receiver, trigger group and bolt affect things as well as the mass/location of the barrel.

Putting the gas port on top allows a rifle to be built with less drop at the heel of the stock, particularly if the sights are mounted high (like the M16, e.g.). Less drop means less rotation upward as the rifle recoils, which is of benefit with rapid or full-auto firing. For many, this also gives the perception of less recoil.

Art
 

Badger Arms

New member
Sorry if I have Patents on the mind, but there are other more effective ways of lessening the effect of recoil on the shooter and on the next shot as in a full-auto weapon. Let me go into a bit of what I understand, right or wrong, about recoil forces.

Using the AK-47 as an example:

First, the detonation of the cartridge causes the rifle to move rearward inline with the bore of the rifle.

Second, Expanding gas in the gas piston cause the bolt carrier to recoil to the rear the resulting force above the centerline of the bore pushing the rifle forward and down.

The third principle force is that of the bolt carrier assembly slamming against the rear of the receiver on about the same line as the second force but sharper than even the first force. This tends to cause the muzzle to rise. This third force is combined with moments of rising pressure and falling pressure as the carrier assembly first compresses and then is accelerated byt he operating spring.

Fourth, the bolt carrier assembly slams into the receiver assembly causing the same motion as the second force but much sharper.

These forces don't cancel each other out ever. The same force is always transfered to the shooter on rifles of like caliber. That is the force of the bullet and propellant gasses exiting the rifle from the muzzle. Muzzle breaks can counteract this by negating the effect of the propellant gasses. Generally this is about 20-50% of the recoil. (Yes, they are lighter but move MUCH quicker). Some muzzle brakes can direct these gasses rearward and make up for some of the bullets recoil.

Back to the subject at hand. I think the Germans came up with the principle of constant recoiling for a firearm. IIRC, this was for one of their assault rifles. The principle goes that the bolt carrier assembly doesn't stop at the rear but is gradually slowed and then pushed forward by the spring. This evens out the pressure curve significantly on an open-bolt gun as the gun fires on the forward stop of the carrier travel. This completely eliminates the third and fourth sharp recoil forces and result in a weapon that is very easy to control.

I'm not quite sure why, but the M-16 which has enough space to utilize this system, instead went with a bulky and marginally effective series of weights to attenuate the third and fourth forces. Combine this with a theoretical in-line recoil (but most people mount the rifle too high on their shoulder to realize this) and you have eliminated muzzle-rise.

Why not eliminate the peaks and valleys in the pressure curve instead of just blunting them. Stoner went a long way toward this, but not far enough. We're left with a vibrating bullet hose. Much better than an undulating, vibrating bullet hose as in the AK-47, but still not the near-steady hose of constant recoiling rifles. Patent #4,502,367 is an interesting read of this relationship. It's 56 pages long. I ordered a copy for $3 from the USPTO. It's worth it.
 

Deadman

New member
" If memory serves, the Steyr Aug bleeds from the side "

Its to the side and slightly lower than the barrel.


The FN Minimi also has the gas piston underneath the barrel.
 
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