Too many guns?

[James K]

Hi guys,

I am a "gun nut". Like many on this thread, I own and shoot more than one gun. I like to talk guns and read about guns.

But if I felt in serious danger, if I carried a gun because I knew damn well I would need it, I would carry and practice with one and only one gun. Period. Whether that would be a 1911 type, a Glock, a SIG, a revolver, is simply irrelevant. I would find the most reliable and accurate gun that I liked and I would use that gun all the time, to the exclusion of everything else.

We "gun nuts" spend time trying this and that gun, playing games with carry positions, and holds, and sights, and gunzine advice. That is hobby fun, and that is what most of us (hopefully all of us) are really looking for. But when your hide is on the line, you want to know where your gun is and know it works. You don't want to be fumbling for the safety that was on last week's gun or pulling a DAO trigger when you are carrying a 1911. You don't want to be carrying ammunition that only fails some of the time.

You don't need super power and bullets that expand to the size of saucers; you do need to hit where you have to hit to stop the fight. You don't need recoil that will numb your hand, or a flash that will blind you, or a noise that will make your ears ring forever after. You need a gun you are comfortable with and that you wear (not "carry") like an old comfortable pair of mocs.

You need a gun you can roll cans with at 20 feet without looking at the sights. You need to practice until you can forget the sights for anything under that.

You need a gun you can feel come into your hand with no fumbling from a holster with no tricks.

Then, maybe you can feel like you are wearing a gun for serious purposes, not simply to play macho would-be hero.

Jim

 

[Zensho]

While being proficient with a particular choice of sidearm would seem prudent, it is also no liability to be familiar with other types in the event your first choice is not available. Concerning carry, be familiar with where it is at all times - easier to do if modes of carry do not vary. fwiw.

 

[twoinchgroup52]

I have many, many handguns. I like to collect them as well as shoot. I don't carry, but my home defense gun is a revolver.
I feel like I can't put 100% faith in any auto in a life or death situation. I've had and seen too many jams, failures to feed and other malfunctions. I trust a revolver, If you take proper care of it, it goes bang each and every time. No safety, no slide stop, etc.

 

[RikWriter]

I can only agree with you partially Jim. Yes, if you are carrying it is best to devote the greater part of your practice to your carry gun (or to guns of the same action and style)so as to ingrain the motions necessary (eg swiping off the safety). It is also wise not to change carry guns often. However, I see nothing wrong with having guns of different styles that you shoot for pleasure in addition to the gun you shoot for defense. As long as you devote the majority of practice time and almost all your defensive drills to the main carry gun I wouldn't think your skills would suffer.

 

[James K]

OK, thoughtful answers. Now, not to be nasty, but have you actually had a real BG, a convicted murderer, tell you in your face that the next time he saw you he would put you on a slab? (This did not happen to me, but to a friend.) It seems to me that this sort of thing takes the fun and sport out of shooting practice, and gets one to concentrate on the essentials. Very fast.

Jim

 

[ctdonath]

If we just stuck with basics, it wouldn't be much of a hobby, the gun rags would vanish for lack of meaningful material, and most manufacturers would give up from lack of sales.

 

[Svt]

Call me ignorant. Call me stupid if you want. No matter what you label me, I will still shoot all my guns with enjoyment. Yes I shoot my carry gun quite a bit more then my others. A majority of my handguns are 1911's. What I'm trying to say is, if I ever had to draw, I already know it's a 1911. I rarely mess with my other auto's but I still occasionally shoot them.

To me, buying and shooting guns is purely for recreational purposes. I spent 4 years active duty as a member of the US Army 2nd Ranger Battalion. I've seen with my own eyes what a firearm can do to a human body. If the situation ever came down to me drawing my firearm on somebody, would I do it? Hell yes I would. However, there are MANY MANY alternatives to using your firearm.

In the 4 years since I got of the service, I never once ran across a situation where I had to consider my firearm. None of my friends or colleagues at work has either. Does it mean it won't ever happen? No.. If you think long and hard about it, before many of you carried concealed, how often did you run across a life-threatening situation? If you did, what did you do without your firearm?

I love my many guns and my rights to own and carry them concealed. I refuse to be consumed with the fear of being so proficient with my carry piece that I ignore my other fine pieces of physics. If I get shot and die, so be it. Atleast when I go, I died enjoying what I do most in my life, shooting, collecting firearms, friends, family, God, and serving my country. I respect death but with my training, I learned that if you live in fear of death daily, then you're not really living.

I'm a gun nut like many of you but a nut when it comes to urban assault, Y2K, or Armageddon, I am definitely not. You can call me what you wish but this is just my opinion.

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Svt
Son's Place

Guns don't kill innocent people. Democrats kill innocent people.

[This message has been edited by Svt (edited January 30, 2000).]

 

[spare mag]

i too, am a gun nut.have to count my babies at least 3X before leaving range to make sure i bring them all home.paranoid about leaving one behind, i guess. anyway, as to carrying just one gun for defense is not practical in my eyes.
what do you carry if your main squeeze is in the shop for repairs or improvements?
what do you do in summer or any of the other seasons when dress affects how and what can be carried concealed?
what of a back-up? should you not be as proficient with it?
what if you loose your gun in a struggle? wouldn't it be nice to have gun knowledge enough to recognize a piece(your assailants)if handy and be able to use it against him or disable it? knowing feel,safeties,mag releases, etc.-- would this not help put the odds of winning in your favor?

just a thought---

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"Life,liberty,and the pursuit of happiness" all can be found and retained with a gun.

 

[Ankeny]

Jim:

Yes, I have been threatened by really bad guys. Happened when I was a LEO but not since. The experience culminated when the very bad guy tried to blow up a parking garage up with me and my partner in it (explosives everywhere). Believe it or not, his battery was dead. We followed the wires to a room in a hotel next to the garage that he had paid for with a credit card in his own name. One of America's dumbest criminals. It was a very sobering experience.

As for more than one gun, I agree with RikWriter.

 

[Mylhouse]

I agree with you, Svt. I feel that some people are WAY too paranoid about that proverbial BG that wants to end their life prematurely. When I hear of civilians like myself carrying THREE firearms on them at once, in addition to a knife and a $75 flashlight (oh, excuse me, TAC-LIGHT), I can only shake my head. My goodness, what are these people so damn afraid of? I used to spend half of my waking hours in serious BUTT-town (heavily gang-infested areas of South Phoenix), I've been flashed gang signs, I've been in traffic disputes that have ended up in fistfights, etc, and I've never once had to pull on somebody. And if I did, so what? I'm confident in my abilities, but when my time is up, it's up. Some of these gunwriters act as if being killed by a BG is the number one fear you should have in life. Like Svt, you can call me stupid too.

 

[Svt]

BTW
I drive through downtown Philadelphia daily for my work. Ugly ugly ugly city yes, but shake rattle and fear it... never

 

[RikWriter]

Mylhouse, I once carried four guns just to prove to a friend I could. <g>

 

[James K]

In my time as a deputy sheriff, I carried one gun, a .38 Chiefs Special three inch in a Bucheimer Federal Man holster. I never fired a shot on duty. I drew the gun once, displayed it once, and told one man I was a LEO and armed. No gun fights. No slaying BGs right and left. But I knew where the gun was, I knew it was loaded, I knew I could draw it (I hoped) fast enough, and I knew that I would probably hit what needed to be hit. I carried one speed loader.

But I did know people who had been in gun fights including, as I said, one guy who was the object of a very personal, down and dirty, hatred by a fellow who would have killed without a second thought. Those guys didn't play with guns, or own collections; they too knew their guns and didn't change guns every half hour. They practiced with one object - stay alive.

A professional does not need to love his tools, only to be competent in their use. I don't know any carpenters with hammer collections, or dry-wall guys who fondle their power drivers, or roofers who go to the range with their nail guns.

I love the sport. I like collecting. Target shooting is fun, and I can hold up my end fairly well. I like to shoot a lot of guns and to try, if not buy, every new piece of hardware I can. I have probably fired guns most of you have only read about or perhaps never heard of. My point is simply that all that has damnall to do with serious self defense or law enforcement.

Jim

 

[Ankeny]

Jim:

Thanks for the clarification. As usual you are pretty much right on target.

 

[VictorLouis]

Nothing wrong w/a nice collection. I'm becoming more committed to a "one action" type of system, such as DAO, for defensive use. When you go play at the range, make it a point to end your session with your carry gun. Two mags or cylinders full, just to refresh your (motor memory, synapses, neurons, pick one)w/your serious piece.

 

[Svt]

Well, you people are all entitled to your own beliefs. Frankly, I do not agree with the paranoia. To me, shooting is a sport. Self-defense is a very very distant second. I just refuse to live in fear.

I've been involved in several conflicts within the past few years. In the same situations, a lot of my friends and colleagues at the range would've drawed or declared they were armed. Fortunately, being a former ranger provided me with training that is more then adequate for self-defense and offense. Never crossed my mind to draw.

If you people feel it's in your best interest to practice practice practice with your carry piece constantly, so be it. That's your right. I shoot at the most 200 rounds through my carry piece a month. I still can put a 1" grouping at 25 yards with it.

Yea the confidence may kill me one day. So be it, I die. What I lack in what you consider commitment and training, I gain in faith in my religion. If the lord almighty feels it's time for me to go, then it's time.

I'm not going to sit on a pedestal and preach to you about religion. What you do with your faith and guns is up to you. Since this is a forum, I stated my opinion on this subject.

When I go shoot, I thoroughly enjoy firing my handguns and AR 15's. I NEVER go with the intention of fine-tuning my marksmanship for the purpose of self-defense. There is much more to owning firearms then training for the BG that's going to kill you.

I respect LEO’s a great deal for all the stress they go through to protect others. Maybe if I were in the same occupation, I’d devote all my time to one handgun. Fortunately, I don’t work in the law enforcement field. Therefore, for me to walk around society being paranoid is completely senseless. Call it blind trust if you wish, but I’ll keep my faith with our LEO’s.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
A professional does not need to love his tools, only to be competent in their use. I don't know any carpenters with hammer collections, or dry-wall guys who fondle their power drivers, or roofers who go to the range with their nail guns.
[/quote]

As stated above, I am far from a professional. I like many others am a civilian enjoying a hobby. There’s a drastic difference between a firearm and a nail gun.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
My point is simply that all that has damnall to do with serious self defense or law enforcement.[/quote]

Again, that’s personal preference. If you choose to make that your reasoning to owning handguns, so be it. Just don’t push onto others who look at it mainly for recreational purposes.

 

[James K]

Hi, SVT,

I am not questioning the sport or the fun, but I am confused. You say that you are just a civilian enjoying shooting as a hobby. Then why are you carrying a gun? Carrying a gun is not a hobby; it is a very serious proposition that could get you into a lot more trouble than it can get you out of. It is nothing less than a statement of intent to kill another human being if necessary.

I agree that drawing down on someone is seldom a good idea if the situation can be handled any other way. In fact, I have noted that any need to draw or fire indicates that the situation is already out of hand. I do not advocate indiscriminate shooting or waving guns around. Nor do I think I am paranoid. My point is simply that most of the shooting "games" that purport to be about self-defense are sports, and most of the people who participate in them are there for fun, period. Those games have the same relationship to a gun fight as tag team football has to a 280 pound NFL linebacker bearing down on you.

Jim

 

[Rob Pincus]

Svt,

I am definitely with Jim, in that if y9ou are carrying a loaded weapon, you better get over the idea that shooting is just a sport real quick! I suggest a serious re-thinking of your position, unless we have misunderstood you.

Back to topic:

Jim,

I fall right into the trap you have laid out. I carry a gun for serious reasons and have for many years (LEO, EP). I used to swear by the 1911 design, but for the last 5 years or so I've become a Glock guy. As I mentioned in another thread earlier today, I have put the G23 up against everything I can find and can't find anything that does better for me in terms of balancing the many things I need from a sidearm. I have carried it on duty, off duty and used it in competition. I have taking schools with it and basically considered it my gun for several years.

That said, I have dozens of other handguns, and I shoot many different types regularly. I have several guns that I carry occassionally which are smaller than the G23 (eg: Tomcat, 640-2) and some that are larger which I use for hunting (629, G20).

Here's the kicker: The dept I recently switched to issues the Beretta 92F. So, I have been carrying it for the last 7 months or so as a duty weapon and occassionally off-duty. This dept also requires me to qualify with every gun that I may carry off-duty, and range time is limited. so, I have been forced to limit my carry options to the guns I have been able to get to the range and qualify with.. this includes Back ups!

So, here I am, a guy who knows that the G23 is the "go to" gun. But, I have to carry and be proficient with a Beretta 92F for most of my waking hours. I also carry a 640 as my primary back-up. Add to those the Glock (23/30) and the Sig that I have qualified with and the philosophy of "pick one gun and stick with it" is crushed by the reality of my circumstances.

I choose instead to be the well rounded gunman. So long as all the guns I choose to carry are "point & shoot" (ie- no single actions), I don't feel that I am putting myself in any real danger. Yes, a Sig and a 640 and a Glock all have different triggers, but they are also all basically the same. So, I have semi-retired my 1911s, but the rest of my "collection" still serves a fighting purpose for me, potentially on a daily basis.

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-Essayons

 

[James K]

Hi, Rob,

That is a bind many LEOs are in, when the issue/required arm is not what they want or even the best choice. Usually department choices are made on the basis of cost, or the recommedation of an "expert" who may or may not know a gun barrel from another hole.

In your position, I would probably do as you are doing. My statements were aimed at the "gun of the week" guys who really are playing games. You recognize the problem and are trying to overcome it. I said early on that "if" I were really in a bad situation, I would carry and practice with one gun. You have read the blasts from the hobbyists. Good luck, and maybe we can lick the "low bid" politicos yet.

(FWIW, when departments went to autos, I suggested that they keep their revolvers and spend the money teaching officers to shoot. I was run over in the stampede. So we get police emptying 16 shot mags and hitting nothing, or worse, blazing away in reflex shooting as in N.Y.)

Jim

 

[blades67]

Hi Jim,

I am not a peace officer, nor have I ever been. I am, however, a veteran. I spent six and a half years in the US Army. While I was in the Infantry I was issued, at various times, an M16A1, M16A2, M203, M60, 1911A1, M9, M2 Bradley IFV (w/ M231 Firing Port Weapons, 25mm 242 Bushmaster Cannon w/M240
coaxial Machinegun, TOW missile launcher) and an M3A3 "Grease gun" (for about 45 days). I was required to be proficient with all of these weapons (except for the Grease gun, I only became proficient at cleaning that one ), even when it wasn't my current issue weapon. In addition to these weapons, I cross-trained with AKM's (Warsaw Pact weapons
familiarization classes), Styer AUG's & G3's (Joint-forces combined-arms training), .50 cal M2's, M66 LAW rocket's, Dragon Anti-tank missiles, Claymore mines, AN/PVS 2 & AN/PVS 4 IR Nightvision sights, AN/PVS 6 IR Nightvision goggles, M67 hand grenades, smoke grenades, anti-personnel mines, anti-tank mines... the list goes on. As well as my personal firearms I am also proficient with my knife, Kama, staff, bo,
broadsword, Eskrima & Balintawak sticks and with more practice I will be proficient with
my chain-whip and nunchucku.

My point is, your brain is your most important weapon. With some time and some training you can become suprisingly proficient with a great
many weapons without sacrificing your ability to defend yourself and survive. I happen to
believe that the more weapons you’re familiar with, the more likely you are to survive an
attack in most situations because you will understand the limitations of the weapon being used against you and (hopefully) be able to exploit that weakness to your advantage. I also believe you can do all of these things without being paranoid.

Remember, just because I'm paranoid, doesn't mean they're not out to get me.

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Guns cause crime like spoons cause Rosie O'Donnell to be fat!

~David~

May your lead always hit center mass and your brass always land in your range bag.