To warn or not to warn? That is the question.

[sliponby]

I have been fortunate (IMHO) to have taken training from some well known instructors, ones who are known to this forum as I have seen them discussed in threads from time to time.

One area of training where I've found a distinct difference between two instructors is to whether one should or should not yell a verbal warning such as "DROP YOUR WEAPON!" or "STOP!" before firing your weapon in self defense.

I realize some will respond that it depends on the situation - and I tend to agree. For example, if the threat has his back to you and doesn't see you, you might not shoot him in the back without warning and giving him the opportunity to stand down. Unless he was pointing a gun at your loved ones- maybe?

But, one instructor does not want to hear any warning yells on his training range, and he is rather adamant about it. His reasoning is that the moment of hesitation could cost you or your loved ones their life. Also, he maintains that the brain under stress can only process one thought at a time efficiently and if you are pushed to the point of drawing your weapon to defend yourself then there's no time to talk. I can't argue that point.

What say you?

 

[Mobuck]

If the threat already has his weapon out and visible, I don't see a reason for a warning. I also have no qualms about sending a bullet from cover w/o a warning if lives are in danger.

 

[turkeestalker]

Though I agree with you, Missouri's version of the Castle Law back when I originally took my CCW class, dictated that you had to. Not doing so could have made the difference between a justified act of self defense and a criminal offense, though it seems silly I know.
I'm not certain, but that may have changed by now. I hope that it has because I do agree with you.

 

[bungiex88]

A dead man tells no tale. 1 story is better then 2.... if its your story. It's sounds cruel and barbaric but if someone is in my house to steal or hurt me or anyone of my family it's do or die. The only warning he will get is the blast of the gun. I work hard for a living everything I have I bought with money I earned and for someone to not think twice breaking into my home to steal does not deserve a 2nd chance. In my own feeling it's better to not have a heart in a situation like that kill or possibly go to jail for injuring a scum bag.

 

[Kosh75287]

If someone is in my house, without my knowledge and invitation, dead of night or high noon, their disregard of my privacy and safety demonstrates their willingness to engage in ANY crime they might contemplate. THAT cancels their license to breathe the air inside my residence. PERIOD. They need engage in no other crime to make me believe they are an unequivocal and emergent danger to me and all who occupy my residence.

At that point, the fight is on. THEY have already warned ME. BIG mistake.

 

[raimius]

Personally,
I would have moral issues if I did not provide a warning. The caveat is if I thought providing said warning would put me or any other innocent party in mortal danger, I would not risk it.

Examples:
Shadowed figure is found in the house in the dead of night--I'd want to illuminate said intruder and command them to cooperate (freeze, hands up, etc). If I can simply delay a thief until the police arrest them, I'm perfectly satisfied. If they make a fast escape without threatening me--it's not ideal, but I'll call it a win. Essentially, if there is no threat/harm to me, I'd rather not initiate any violence.

In something like an active shooter situation, where every second of delay may mean more loss of innocent life, I'll work to protect that innocent life in as efficient and effective a manner I can.

...that's the plan anyway.

 

[sliponby]

What about a public setting as opposed to your home, where one has much more legal protection to defend themselves? Would mum still be the word? Seems to me that teaching students to yell a warning before shooting is a widespread practice in the firearms training arena.

 

[Tactical Jackalope]

If they are engaging myself or a loved one with malice, no verbal warning.

If they are engaging in acts of theft of property, verbal warning to stand down will be given.

If they are engaging in acts of armed robbery, no verbal warning.

 

[kilimanjaro]

If the threat to the life of you or a loved one is imminent and certain, a warning is just increasing the odds against a life you don't want taken, yours or a family member.

If it's not so clear, a verbal command may be appropriate.

Active shooter? Fire when ready.

A knife displayed towards a child? Verbal command.

Warnings? Forget about them. Give commands, not warnings. Either way, the recipient ignores it at or fails to comply at his peril. Say it once, say it loud, then act.

 

[Jim243]

A dead man tells no tale. 1 story is better then 2.... if its your story.

With the number of video cameras out there in stores, ATMs, parking lots, and security cameras on buildings as well as the people walking around with cell phones with cameras, it is unlikely that a single story will be the only one told.

If there is no other way to save a loved one, then so be it, even if their back is turned to me. (no warning, I will take the shot.)

However, I must have watched too many William Boyd and the Lone Ranger movies during my youth and under no circumstance (other than the one above) will I take the first shot unless given no other choice. If fired upon, I will return fire. If the assailant turns and runs, I will leave it to the police to find him or her, if they turn back and fire, then I hope they are a good shot, because I will not hesitate or give warning.

If they are caught flat foot unaware, then a warning will be given. What happens next is totally up to them and what they do.

Stay safe.
Jim

 

[A pause for the COZ]

My rule is to not present my fire arm unless I intend to shoot it. Talking about it just gives them a chance to shoot you first.

There are times that rule does not count. When I am investigating suspicious activity around the home stead. I have my Home defense weapon drawn. Because thats were the high power light is. If I happen across a gas thief. I am not going to shoot them for that. So I have had to adjust my process since I am already presenting my fire arm. So A HEY!!! What you doing? might be in order.

Inside the house? Their intent is plain. No warning will be given. Just want to be sure your not a drunk buddy who's wife kicked them out and looking for a place to crash. But most of my buddies know not to go crashing around my place unannounced. but it has happened once. He was lucky I saw who it was.

 

[Sequins]

I would definitely yell 'stop or i'll shoot' or similar if I thought there was a realistic chance of compliance or if the person was on the cusp of violence but had not yet committed violence upon another; a knife point mugging where no blood has been drawn perhaps. If blood has been spilled it's harder to say and I hope I'm never in that situation.

 

[A pause for the COZ]

The knife wielding thing is a tricky call. There is that 25 foot rule. Inside of 25 feet they can reach you before you will get off a shot. So your gona get stabbed if thats their intent.

Thats why we see all the video of cops shooting the heck out of some knife wielding dummy 15 feet away. But also as the resulting protests can attest.
Those dont happen for free.

 

[thump_rrr]

The knife wielding thing is a tricky call. There is that 25 foot rule. Inside of 25 feet they can reach you before you will get off a shot. So your gona get stabbed if thats their intent.

Thats why we see all the video of cops shooting the heck out of some knife wielding dummy 15 feet away. But also as the resulting protests can attest.
Those dont happen for free

There are many misconceptions about the Tueller drill most commonly known as the 21' rule.

The most important piece of information is that the firearm is holstered.
It is the reaction time required for your brain to process the fact that you should draw your firearm that takes up most of the time.

If your firearm is already drawn and pointed at the suspect your reaction time is much less than 1 second.
You can test out your reaction time using a shot timer at the range with both a bolstered and I holstered gun.

 

[A pause for the COZ]

Here is a good example of how NOT to deal with a knife guy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75RTkGbiJpk

its pretty boring until about 4 mins into it.

Its a YouTube so if its not allowed, just delete my post I wont get mad.

 

[g.willikers]

he maintains that the brain under stress can only process one thought at a time

That's probably the main reason for not talking during a confrontation.
Especially if the other guy isn't.
Assessment of the situation should precede the decision to talk or not.
The time it takes for the brain to switch from one activity to another can make all the difference.

We witness it every day with people who try to drive while talking on their phones.
Tailgating, running stop signs and lights, wandering across lanes, and generally doing a poor job of it.
The same is true for most other things, in spite of claims to the contrary.

Try talking and shooting the next time you go to the range and see for yourself.
Bet you have to stop talking before you can shoot, at least at first.
It takes a lot of practice to be able to do both at the same time.

 

[OldMarksman]

Posted by turkeestalker:

Though I agree with you, Missouri's version of the Castle Law back when I originally took my CCW class, dictated that you had to.

Whatever gave you that idea?

Posted by bungiex88:

A dead man tells no tale.

Hogwash!

Dead men have been "telling tales" since the earliest days of forensic evidence and forensic medicine.

I work hard for a living everything I have I bought with money I earned and for someone to not think twice breaking into my home to steal does not deserve a 2nd chance.

That sentence is somewhat convoluted, but the legal principles that relate to the justification of the use of force in your house have to do with the safety of you and yours, and not with how you acquired your possessions.

Posted by Kosh75287:

If someone is in my house, without my knowledge and invitation, dead of night or high noon, their disregard of my privacy and safety demonstrates their willingness to engage in ANY crime they might contemplate.

In some jurisdictions, you would be given a presumption, albeit rebuttable, that such was true.

In others, however, you would have to also have a reason for believing that they had entered forcibly.

Which describes your jurisdiction?

THAT cancels their license to breathe the air inside my residence. PERIOD.

BIG misunderstanding!

What it may do is change the threshold for your providing evidence that force had been immediately necessary. And that's it, PERIOD.

They need engage in no other crime to make me believe they are an unequivocal and emergent danger to me and all who occupy my residence.

That may be, but the really important question will be whether others think that what you believed was reasonable, based upon what you knew at the time.

Posted by Constantine:

If they are engaging myself or a loved one with malice, no verbal warning.

If they are engaging in acts of theft of property, verbal warning to stand down will be given.

If they are engaging in acts of armed robbery, no verbal warning.

Good way to look at it, assuming that "malice" is accompanied by whatever other justifying factors may be necessary.

Posted by A pause for the COZ:

My rule is to not present my fire arm unless I intend to shoot it.

THE rule, in some jurisdictions, is to not present it unless you have a basis for a reasonable belief that deadly force is lawfully justified.

In a few jurisdictions, substitute "force" for "deadly force".

There are times that rule does not count. When I am investigating suspicious activity around the home stead. I have my Home defense weapon drawn.

I am aware of no jurisdictions in which one would be justified in presenting a weapon "around the homestead" simply because one might be "investigating" something.

Because thats were the high power light is.

Then, for heaven's sake, get another light.

If I happen across a gas thief. I am not going to shoot them for that.

GOOD!

Posted by Sequins:

I would definitely yell 'stop or i'll shoot' or similar if I thought there was a realistic chance of compliance

I guess you would have to be there.

...or if the person was on the cusp of violence but had not yet committed violence upon another; a knife point mugging where no blood has been drawn perhaps.

You would actually wait for blood to be drawn??? WHY?

 

[Boogershooter]

This is a touchy subject. I hope most people on here realize that in some states if you are involved in any situation being discussed will likely bring on a investigation on you so thorough that anything you post will likely be brought up in court. Especially if it's not in your home. Now for my answer. The first battle is your brains natural thought process of fight or flight. Once that is done then you have to react. If you are not trained on this it could take several seconds. If you have kids or elderly with you then you are going to take more time because you will naturally look at them before you react to the attacker. Tell them to run, hide or get behind you or possibly to tell them to dial 911. It happens wether you want it to or not. If shots are already fired from someone besides yourself then all bets are off because at that point you don't know what your brain is going to tell you to do. Most people point their gun and start shooting while not even looking at the target they are looking for somewhere to hide for cover. That's usually what happens in public scenarios. Home defense is a Lil bit different. First yourine brain tells you to worry bout others in the house. You normally don't get the fight or flight thought because you are in your home where you feel safe. Most people after the first initial panic get a instant dose of anger and at that point you start attacking the attacker by whatever means necessary. Never shoot anybody in the back even if they are in your home. If you have a good district attorney and the media doesn't get involved you may be ok but that usually isn't the case. Always be prepared to protect yourself and family but you never know what you are going to do until you are attacked. Most shots fired are going to miss so never shoot around a crowd unless you have absolutely no choice.

 

[OldMarksman]

Posted by Boogershooter:

Never shoot anybody in the back even if they are in your home.

I wouldn't put it so strongly.

If a man with a knife is heading into a room in which a loved one is, it won't matter whereto you shoot him in the back or the from or the side or the top of the head from above.

Most shots fired are going to miss so never shoot around a crowd unless you have absolutely no choice.

ALWAYS try to take into account what is behind your target.

And what is in front of it, for that matter.

 

[g.willikers]

Most shots fired are going to miss

Eghads, who are you hanging out with?