To Turret or not to Turret, that is the question.

[GWS]

First of all I'm new here. A forty-year veteran of reloading, and a 20-month old babe to progressive reloading and some other intermet gun forums. Why am I here? To make new friends and add to my knowledge, of course. If I can make a few contributions, or observations, to help the less experienced, that's even better.

I like reloading...single-station, turret, progressive, Red, Green, or Blue...it don't matter to me, if it meets my or another's current needs. And that's just it, everybody has different needs, so one outfit that fits me to a "T", won't fit another so well. Ain't it wonderful that we have so many choices.

I'm an old fart of sorts (60), so I look at things different from the younger computer generation. I may have slightly more patience...not much...but slightly. Anyway, twenty months ago, I decided I wanted to do more shooting and less reloading, so I was studying the possibility of adding to my 40-year-old Rockchucker on the bench, a turret or a progressive. The progressive won out....maybe I didn't have as much patience as I thought.

When I got here on TFL there was a thread going on about "baby steps," I added my 2 cents of course, and then posted a step by step treatise (that has nothing to do with passion, just facts) on the difference between reloading on the latest autoadvance turret press, and a 5-station autoadvance progressive.

Then I realized that the thread was about spent and very few would ever read it. I think people currently trying to decide between the types should know the difference between them without any hype or color bias, just the facts, step by step.

What I discovered with this analysis, 20 months ago, was yes, progressives, are faster (not surprising), but what was surprising is the difference of effort spent. Those banging away on their single-stations, if they analyze, step-wise, the difference between a turret and a single-stage, will find that a turret is more a convenience than a step-saver....excepting that with a turret-mounted powder measure, the powder drop and case expansion on a pistol shell is combined. Then again, if you use a Lee powder-thru expander, you can do the same thing on your single-station, using Lee powder cups if you want. Still, I can see the obvious conveniance advantages to a turret.

Anyway here's the comparison quoted from "Jump or Baby Steps"

A written illustration of the difference between a turret and a progressive. Each stroke of the press handle is illustrated by color. Red = downstroke, and blue = upstroke. Hopes this helps.

Lee Classic Auto-advance Turret loading pistol with Lee dies:

1. insert case 1 in shellholder, stroke the press...sizes & deprimes then primes and advances the turret to the powder charging, expander.
2. Stroke the press... expands and charges the case. (if using measure over powder thu expander) then advances the turret to the bullet seater.
3. place a bullet and stroke the press...seats the bullet then advances the turret to the Factory Crimp Die.
4. Stroke the press...crimps the round, then advances the turret to the sizer again. And of course you remove the loaded round.

Repeat for ten rounds and you have 10 loaded rounds in 40 strokes of the press handle.

Now using an auto-advance five station progressive (strokes will differ depending on brand, but stroke count will be the same for any brand unless using a powder thru expander). Using my Pro 2000 only because I know it best, we will use the same Lee dies but not the powder thru feature or an expensive case collator/feeder:

1. insert case 1, stroke the press...sizes deprimes case 1 then advances and primes case 1.
2. insert case 2, stroke the press...sizes deprimes case 2, expands case 1 then advances and primes case 2.
3. insert case 3, stroke the press...sizes deprimes case 3, expands case 2, charges case 1 then advances and primes case 3.
4. insert case 4 and place bullet on case 1, stroke the press...sizes deprimes case 4, expands case 3, charges case 2, seats the bullet on case one then advances and primes case 4.
5. insert case 5 and place bullet on case 2, stroke the press...sizes deprimes case 5, expands case 4, charges case 3, seats the bullet on case two, crimps case 1 then advances and ejects case 1 and primes case 5.

So far we have stroked the press 5 times. Each stroke there after ejects a loaded round, so if we stroke the press 35 more times (to equal the 40 turret press strokes to load 10 rounds, will will have 36 rounds loaded. Ceasing at that point to place more cases, 4 more strokes will finish the 4 shells left in the press at stoke 40.

Bottom line is....do you prefer to load 10 rounds in 40 strokes or 40 rounds in 44 strokes...you choose. Lookin' at it another way: The turret takes 160 handle strokes to load 40 rounds.

BTW, both methods require making sure the primer is seated properly, the powder drops once, the bullet is placed straight. And of course, sizer, expander, seater, crimper, and powder measure are all set up properly. So one is not any more complicated than the other. You just have to be watchful at a faster pace. (any reloading operation should be done with no distractions, no drugs or alcohol, and NO interruptions from your Honey, or kids...then you'll do just fine.)

 

[Brian Pfleuger]

Well, I can't say that I find the difference in "effort" to be surprising at all. What I do find surprising is the price difference between a progressive and Lee Classic Turret setup.

Since I personally won't fire more than a few hundred pistol rounds in an entire year, the extra expense of the progressive is completely wasted on me. I could produce my entire years supply of ammo in about 3 or 4 hours and pay for it 5 times over with the cost difference between a turret and a progressive.

I really can not see the benefit of a progressive for anyone except those shooters who legitimately shoot so much ammo that the actual time spent at the press begins to be prohibitive. For me, that would equal AT LEAST 20,000 rounds a year, since 2 hours a week on my Classic turret could produce 10,000 rounds a year, easily.

Also, it would be interesting to see the actual TIME difference since it's not directly 1 to 1 on "strokes" of the press. Maybe it would make the progressive look better, maybe worse, I don't know.

 

[Unclenick]

Yeah, but you're not subtracting the doctor bills for treating carpel tunnel syndrome.

No question the progressive is a luxury for most owners. I've got one friend who hates to reload and just wants to shoot .45's, so he got Dillon 1050. Of course he probably does run 1000 rounds a week.

 

[GWS]

Gentlemen, you both make valid points from your points of view. That's just it, the needs, time, available funds, priorities, etc., etc., are as variable as we are. That's why I chose to just show the facts, stroke by stroke.

I guarantee one thing only, stroking one type is the same as stroking another, unless you've got a small inexpensive single-station with the minimum mechanical advantage, and you're trying to size a big 300 magnum case on it. That's hard on you...and the press.

As to actual reloading speed there are many variables, many of them human.

Obviously case feeders and bullet feeders can speed things up, but they are options only available to progressive users...press strokes remain the same, but inserting bullets and cases by hand are obvious bottlenecks...ones that some prefer, just to help keep their heads in the game.

The biggest bottleneck for rifle is case prep, and that has nothing to do with press type, unless you opt for a Dillon press-mounted case trimmer...and that's another story to analyse.

 

[wingman]

As to actual reloading speed there are many variables, many of them human.

I have 40 plus years in, now using a turret setup, I enjoy reloading see it as additional part of the shooting sport. I prefer to load rifle on a single stage for accuracy and turret for pistol. I don't know if I am correct on this issue but expect more kaboom's are loaded on turret or progressive then single stage. Speed kills If shooting 500 plus rounds a week I would go progressive but in my case not cost effective.

 

[Doodlebugger45]

To me, the number of handle strokes is not relevant. What is relevant is the number of times that I pick up a case out of the plastic tub, slide it into the shellholder for a given operation, then take it out, put it back into a different tub, only to have to take it out of the tub, slide it into the shellholder again for the next operation, etc. If I only have to touch that case one time with a turret rather than 10 or 12 times on a single stage, then that is truly a good thing.

 

[GWS]

I have 40 plus years in, now using a turret setup, I enjoy reloading see it as additional part of the shooting sport. I prefer to load rifle on a single stage for accuracy and turret for pistol. I don't know if I am correct on this issue but expect more kaboom's are loaded on turret or progressive then single stage. Speed kills If shooting 500 plus rounds a week I would go progressive but in my case not cost effective.

Ha! When I first read that I thought you said you've been loading turret for 40 plus years!

What I've read (not really irrefutable sources) is that kabooms due to progressives are more likely in manual indexing versions. Would make sense to me. It would be simpler to double load if you can manually move the case back and forth.

If I had a turret, I'm thinking I'd personally prefer to still load in batches, for that reason. The turret head in that case would still be a convenience. I haven't ever used a turret, but I'm not sure I could beat the speed of using a powder measure batch-wise on a tray full of primed brass...think of the small quick stroke in that case.

If I ever get a turret, it'd be to make my single-station operations more convenient....probably would opt for the Lee Classic Design, not so much for the autoindex feature, but for the size and # of holes. I think 4 holes is plenty if the heads are easily removable....and they are, on the Lee. Also if one was NOT using the turret in batch-mode, personally I'd rather have 2 calibers of dies mounted in 2 turrets on the shelf than 2 sets of dies on one turret....thinking you have to turn the thing back to the beginning after each load....and it's already there on the 4 holer.

To me, the number of handle strokes is not relevant

Perhaps so, when you are comparing single-station to turret. But this thread was inspired by the gentleman trying to decide between a turret or a progressive....in THAT comparison strokes are very relevant. Loading 36 rounds with the same effort as loading 10 rounds is the comparison...whether or not it's what you want, what you choose, or what you can afford to do.

 

[Slamfire]

This for rifle:

And a Dillion 550 B for pistol.

I also use the Dillion to dump powder and seat the bullet on my short range rifle ammo.

 

[Real Gun]

When someone makes a good progressive for the same price as a solid turret, then there will be a real comparison. What I read and have done myself is settle for a cost bracket based on how much I shoot and then need to reload. For those who don't need but a few hundred a month, they won't be pulling handles any more than progressive loaders doing 1000+.

The other factor is that a progressive is a juggling act...a number of things to watch and be stressed about while trying to keep your rhythm. You don't have that tension with a turret, so the turret can be much more pleasant to operate, when the output rate suits your notion of time you want to spend at it.

 

[Jim243]

Geezzz GWS, your a youngster compared to some of us old farts. When you get over 65 then you can call yourself an OF. If you not on Medicare it doesn't count.(LOL)

By the way welcome. But as I keep telling every one it's not the equipment cost, but the cost of all those bullets for a progressive that keeps me on my turret press.

Jim

 

[GWS]

When you get over 65 then you can call yourself an OF. If you not on Medicare it doesn't count.(LOL)

Jim, that'd be comforting except that I didn't wait for Medicare to have a heart attack and a double bypass. My 18 grandkids sure think I'm one.

Thanks for the Welcome, I'll try not to get in the way. I'm not retired yet, as a building contractor with lots of mouths to feed, I may never get to. The analysis I did was because I was trying to decide which direction I wanted to go next.

I was loading .45 and .308 on the Rock Chucker one friday night when I realized I'd waited too long to replenish the stash, when 4 of my Grand Sons was expecting a Saturday shoot. Had to go buy new! That got me thinking that there had to be a better way to procrastinate and get my ammo too! I decided I was tired of the same long process I'd been doing for 40 years. The above analysis was part of my decision process. Love the progressive...won't be using a single shell holder much, except to size rifle brass, for case prep. Still, a little turret might be fun for odd calibers.

Understand the bullet cost problem...bulk is hard to find these days.

 

[Lost Sheep]

GWS and Doodlebugger 45

GWS, your brief autobiography reads almost exactly like mine. Single stage press since the mid-70's supplemented by pair of progressives (Lee Pro-1000).

But I just this July switched to a Lee Classic Turret.

While weighing my options, I wrote up a narrative of the loading process that reads almost word for word like the one you quoted, but without the color coding.

My throughput is almost as great on the turret as on the progressive because what slows me down is not the number of strokes (as Doodlebugger45 noted), but the number of individual things I have to check. Did the primers feed properly? Did the primer seat in the shell properly? Did the powder drop correctly (and am I running out of powder yet - did that once for a dozen rounds)? Etc. etc.

It takes me just as long to check those critical points on a progressive as it does on my turret (OK, I may be being over-cautious). But brings production quantities of my progressives down to about what I can do on my turret. On either design of press, I only handle each case twice, once inserting the empty and once removing the loaded round. (My progressives are not 100% reliable kicking them out.)

I have a friend who uses his turret like a single stage. (He could do as well on a single stage with bushings, but I am not going to tell him now that he spent the money.) But that is just his style and lets him keep his dies set up and grouped together. It does allow him to weigh each charge individually and prime his cases off-press (which strongly disadvantages an auto-indexing turret press). That's also his style and preference. I have always primed on the press.

I will grant that if I had a dedicated loading area and a Dillon 650 with case collator, I would probably sing a different tune, but I also break down my loading bench after each session, and set-up of my turret is simpler than any progressive I have ever seen, also.

Add to that, the fact that changing calibers does not require buying a special shell plate, but only a standard shell holder. That appeals to my thrift genes.

Yep, the Turret fits the way I load and the quantity I shoot just right.

If my shooting habits were different, my ideal loading setup would probably be different, too, just as it is for many others on the forum.

Celebrate diversity! Days at the range or in the field would be pretty boring is we all shot the same guns.

Lost Sheep

 

[Jim243]

GWS, don't feel alone on this one. Had my tripple bypass when I was 52, double cataract surgery when 57 turned diabetic at 60 and had the stitches taken out of my back today from skin cancer surgery 2 weeks ago. And I am one of the youngsters here even thou I am 7 years your elder.

You will find a lot on this forum are a lot older than we look (LOL) We just keep young by pounding all those bullets out with our impact hammers. Helps keep our sanity too, all thou sometimes I can't attest to everyone else's on the forum.

Welcome and jump in whenever you can.

Jim

 

[wingman]

Ha! When I first read that I thought you said you've been loading turret for 40 plus years!

If I had a turret, I'm thinking I'd personally prefer to still load in batches, for that reason.

Yep when I type my brain is slow in catching up.

Batch loading works fine with the turret, I have a Lee Classic and can switch it over to manual indexing in seconds the 4 head turrets are convenient as I prefer to seat and crimp pistol rounds in different operations. My goal is not speed but quality, honestly after all the years of reloading I feel more comfortable shooting my reloads rather then commercial.

 

[doctruptwn]

I went from a single stage to a turret and I found that your right as far as effort ie. strokes used to produce ammo. Where I found the time savings was:
1. With the turret calibre change is a simple change in turret. versus changing shell plates, dies, and other components.
2. Also as stated I can be a little more vigilant as to what is happening with each round.

I have found that I about doubled my speed of reloading from a single stage. That speed is about half of what I could do on a progressive. For me it was a good compromise.

To me if I was only reloading 1 or 2 different calbre's then a progressive or 2 wouldn't be a bad choice, with the number of rounds I'm reloading. However since I am reloading about 4 different calibre's and planning on more, then the ability to quick change between them and the marginally faster speed of reloading is a benefit for me. I see the turret as a good compromise between, blinding speed reloading and slower accurate reloading, of a single stage.

 

[jmortimer]

I use my Lee Precision turret press in single stage mode with auto-index removed. I use powder dippers and load in batches. The turrets, set up with the dies, make caliber changes so easy. I like the set up with the funnel in the expanding/powder die. With the dippers there are no moving parts and no scale and weighing powder speeds things up. I also have a single stage but the turrets are so nice. I like K.I.S.S. I have no interest in getting a progressive or using a single stage. If I shot more than I do then the 1050 does sound like the way to go but I don't mind reloading and like the batch/hand's on method. I find the process satisfying.

 

[Dr. Strangelove]

Question?

Why does everyone make it seem like changing dies on a single stage is some crazy hard process? I set the dies up once, unscrew them when I need to change one, and screw the next one in place... simple.

I can see the advantage of just being able to turn a turret head to the next die, but then you've got the heads to buy and have to store them someplace.

 

[Real Gun]

Lee turrets cost $13. I don't think citing the cost of that is a very compelling argument against turret in favor of single stage. The powder measure is so cheap each turret has one of those too. The turret is literally ready to go once the hopper is filled with powder.

Storage of a turret populated with a caliber setup is not difficult. My goodness, be creative. Mine are in tall coffee storage translucent plastic thingies.

As far as single stage, changeover is not a big deal and there is really no time for setup if using Hornady LnL bushings or the Lee Breech Lock, available on the Breech Lock Challenger or Classic Cast (requires a 1 1/2 thread and adapter for 7/8 thread dies).

 

[snuffy]

Storage is simple, all you need is a drill press, a board, and a 7/8" wood bit.

Problem is, you will always need more turrets, so order twice what you think you'll need.

I agree that it's no big deal to screw a die into a single stage press. But, with a lee classic turret, you can load a completed shell in less that 10 seconds. IF you have the auto index engaged, the safety primer set up, and the auto disc set up.

I realize it's hard to abandon the old batch methods some "older loaders" have grown old with. Do you own a cell phone? Or watch a DVD lately?

I'm not 65,,,yet. Only 5 months to go! But recent cancer surgery ,(prostate), has shown me the future needs to be embraced. My son just got a droid cell phone with all the bells and whistles. I don't have a cell know, so I just might pop for one of those!

 

[flashhole]

Snuffy, is that a Ultra Seat Die on your 223 turret? How do you like it?