To carry or not to carry?

[HAWK-HKG11]

Alright, My friend and I are having a dispute on carrying. He's not anti-gun (very pro-gun infact), but he believes that the entire carry philosophy is flawed. You guys obviously dont need to hear my arguments, but here's his. He believes that there's really no situation in your life where you would get into a conflict where you would NEED to use your gun in public unless its some homicidal maniac (he says, for example, he'd rather lose $200 in a mugging than risk getting killed by pulling a gun out). Of course, whatever I say he won't buy. I'm sure you guys are extremely experienced on this topic (I'm new to firearms as well, but I believe in carrying), so I'd like to hear some logical arguments convincing my friend.

 

[ojibweindian]

Why would he think a BG would just stop at taking $200 out of his wallet? Would he be willing to risk his life by depending on the gentle mercies of an armed adversary? That is the epitome of unabashed stupidity!

 

[HAWK-HKG11]

Well, we've gotten to the point where I say "What if......."and he says "What are the chances of that??!!"

 

[Marko Kloos]

As has been said before by someone more eloquent than myself:

It's not the odds that bother me, it's what's at stake.

 

[4V50 Gary]

Only problem is that you don't know when it's going to be a simple theft of property as opposed to possibility of great bodily injury or death. That's why you carry.

If you're friend really feels that way, he can give up his wallet, but when it's an issue of personal safety or life, SHOOT.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

When Clint Smith was throwing out some stats to the class, he pointed out something like 10-12% of those mugging-type and related robberies result in the victim getting harmed after giving up the goods. So sure, you have an 88-90% chance of not getting harmed by full compliance.

That number is NOT high enough for me.

Then there are the issues non-robbery violence such as by former spouses or boy/girl friends, rape, and general thug crimes where force is used even when there may not be any apparent goal such as to steal money.

Carrying a gun does not mean that I have to use it and it does not mean that I will be able to use it when the time comes. Carrying a gun simply gives me an option that I would not otherwise have in a life and death situation and anytime someone robs you at gun or knife-point, it is NOT just a robbery but a life and death situation. Continued training helps make that option more realistically feasable.

 

[Edward429451]

With me its not about what if but what did.
Lets see, once they tried to car jack me, he got my door open and as he was reaching inside to wrestle me out , he seen my Charter Arms Bulldog 44 laying on the dash with me moving towards it, funny how fast he ran.

Then there was the time they was going to mug my beautiful pregnant wife and I, followed us off the bus cause they seen her poking around in the cash before we got off. They followed us a block or so then one hung back while the other approached, asking for a handout and being persistant when we said no. He kept on edging closer until yellow turned to orange and I backstepped off the curb, put my hand on my holstered Colt, the one who hung back "fell" down on the grass real fast and the big one went "Woo!" as he backpeadled. (Note, I seriously edited the details for space on this one, but this is basically how it happened.)

Then there was the time that I actually had to let a round loose into the grass in front of an attacking dog to turn him. It worked alright, it was four paws in the air, skidding on his butt, just like in the cartoons! Glad I didnt have to shoot the dog, hid owner came retrieved him real quick when he heard the shot. I didnt stop to talk.

Tell your bro to quit being naive. TSHTF everyday somewhere. I saved my vehicle, may have saved my unborn son, and wife, and kept myself from being chewed on by a big dog. I'd say this Colt has more than paid for itself.

 

[Dfariswheel]

You and your friend are normal, rational people......armed robbers AREN'T. Just about every day we hear about some thief getting the money, or what ever he wants, then hurting or killing the victim anyway. Unstable people like this get a THRILL out of making somebody afraid and beg not to be harmed, then doing it anyway.

I've been told by several people that the worst feeling possible is going through this knowing that in the car or at home is the gun that could have prevented this. Ask the lady in Texas that had a gun in the car at Luby's, and had to watch as a piece of scum shot her Mom and Dad. I don't PLAN on having a house fire, but I have insurance, smoke alarms, and a fire extenguisher. I guess by anti's standards, that makes me a "pyrophobe".

If some trash wants what little money I have, he'll have to want it badly enough to die for it, I AM. The reason there wasn't much armed robbery in the old west, was because people believed in not surrendering to some thief. If you wanted it, you had to risk your life for it, even if it wasn't their money.
While I'm not going to risk my life for a few bucks, I'm sure as hell not going to back water for some punk.

The gun simply gives me the OPTION of not taking whatever an unstable person wants to dish out.

 

[Jorah Lavin]

Ask your anti-CCW friend about this situation...

Just happened near here.

Most people think being a realtor is a safe job, but a Monroe woman was brutally assaulted in a home she is selling in the upscale Bridgewater neighborhood. She left the house unlocked when she went in and a man, police say is a construction worker in the neighborhood, followed her. He has been identified as 26-year-old Daniel Angel Sanchez.

Sanchez hit her with something like a crow bar and tried to sexually assault her. She fought him off, climbed out a window, and ran to a neighbor's home for help. The realtor is listed in fair condition at Presbyterian Hospital. Sanchez has been charged with first degree kidnapping, assault with a deadly weapon, and first degree sexual assault after turning himself into police Thursday night. He is being held in the Union County jail on a $500,000 bond.

Original Link

According to your friend, this woman should have been safe, since the bad guy should have just asked her for some cash and then quietly left the house...

-Jorah


PS: A friend put it best... I'm not paranoid, just prepared.

 

[DeputyVaughn]

Everybody has to decide for themselves what they will make a stand for. For some it's not he money but the principle of the thing. Others play the odds. As for me, the old saying "millions for defense but not one penny for tribute!!!!" covers it.

Scott A. Vaughn

 

[C.R.Sam]

A few years ago when carjacking was just getting popular, the good citizens of California were advised that they would be safer if they didn't try to resist. After several people were killed AFTER giving up their vehicles on demand; the powers that be backed off on the no resistance advice.

Robbers kill, rapists kill, muggers kill..........not all of them but enough to make the odds bad for the victim. Dead victims can't testify against the perp.

"It's just a car (or whatever), there is no reason to use deadly force to protect material items." How many hours did I have to work to pay for that car ? If it is stolen, that many hours of my life have been stolen. Now I have two reasons to "stop" the thief. One he is trying to steal part of my life and two I have reason to believe that he means me grevious harm.

Sam

 

[EricM]

Why bother? Just worry about yourself.

 

[RHarris]

Many of the scenarios given as reasons to carry ARE very unlikely. That does not necessarily mean it shouldn't be done though.

Getting struck by lightning is highly improbable, but since it does occasionally happen, we don't play golf in the middle of a thunderstorm or stand under trees at such a time.

During a commute to work, one is far more likely to arrive without having a wreck than one is to have one, but wearing a seatbelt is a good idea.

Unlikely events people are not prepared for cause far more damage than likely events they deal with regularly.

 

[PreserveFreedom]

Criminals hate witnesses almost as much as they hate legally carried guns. It's not uncommon to get shot for your posessions when you weren't even resisting. Hell, I remember when I lived outside Chicago...the gangbangers would shoot you without saying a word, then steal your jacket and shoes.

 

[Don Gwinn]

If you carry no gun, you have no options. You do exactly what you are told.

If you carry a gun, you have two options. You can do what you're told if you don't think the gun will work. However, if you think the gun will stop the crime or that you have more to lose by giving in, you have the option to deploy the gun.

I carry an unloaded gun in a fanny pack in accordance with the laws in my state. I recognize that there are even fewer situations where that could possibly help than a loaded handgun would, but again, it comes down to whether it's worth it to have more options when bad things are happening to you.

 

[David Scott]

Tell your friend to read the newspapers. That's what convinced me. I read of carjackings, parking-lot holdups, and so on, and decided that life was too easy for the bad guys. Carrying doesn't make you a pseudo-cop, but it's better to have the option than not.

 

[Derek Zeanah]

Ask your friend if it's appropriate for his wife to submit to a gang-rape at knifepoint. Ask if it's appropriate for him to submit to a gang-rape. Ask if he beieves such things happen. I'm sure you can find stats for frequency of rapes somewhere online.

A few years back Louis Free (misspelled, I know -- FBI dude) was on TV stating that you were more likely to be a victim of a violent crime than you were to be in an auto accident. Ask your friend if he wears a seatbelt when he drives.

As it is, I carry, but I also carry 2 wallets -- one I'm willing to give up (money, grocery membership card, scuba certification, etc) and one I'm not willing to surrender (drivers license, ATM cards, credit cards, SS card, etc) -- so I've got an option other than escalate the situation to a deadly level or give away everything needed to let the dude try identity theft.

I guess this is a difficult decision, but it's one you should make before deciding to carry. My wife (less than a year away from her MD) won't carry because she doesn't believe she would shoot someone on the street (though we've gotten to the point where she's willing to defend herself in the home). I carry, because I believe that society needs to be protected from certain types of people. I carry because I believe the initiation of force for the purpose of personal gain is evil, and I have an obligation to stand against evil.

This is a decision that everyone needs to make independently, and it's hard to do a risk evaluation to know what your risk level really is. Carrying is a pain in the ass, and it's something that scares a lot of people. I can see why someone would choose not to carry -- I guess I weigh the various factors a little differently.

 

[Darkangel]

I started CCW a number of years ago after an incident in Portsmouth Va. A X-ray Tech. ,I knew, and his wife were walking back to their car. Two guys held them up, my aquaintance cooperated and handed over his billfold. As the two holdup men were walking away one turned and said "the Mother F***er knows us" and shot him. He died on the way to the ER.
He cooperated and still died.
Back then I carried a .45. Twice in Va, and three times in Texas that weapon, just by showing it, saved me from injury or death.
I now live in one of the safest areas in the US, I still CCW, I will continue to CCW.
late
DA

 

[ctdonath]

If you don't have it, you can't use it. Simple.

He believes that there's really no situation in your life where you would get into a conflict where
you would NEED to use your gun in public unless its some homicidal maniac

Very low chance, agreed. Ask him what he'll think if he finds himself facing that homicidal maniac unarmed. Open up a newspaper and go over the last 24 hours worth of crime - it all happened to SOMEBODY.

It's not just two-legged predators one needs to worry about. Visiting a friend in a decent neighborhood in broad daylight, a German Shepherd came after me - fortunately it broke off the attack, had it gone one more foot it would be dead. Several people were less lucky with some pit bulls recently around here.

It's the same as buying insurance: your number may come up regardless of whether you're prepared for it. Scout's motto: Be Prepared.

 

[Dennis]

Fighter pilots wear parachutes - yet hope to never use one.

Smart people wear safety belts in cars - yet hope to avoid a crash.

I carry a gun.