Tips for shooting Prone with a bad back

Vt.birdhunter

New member
Doing the Middleberry Appleseed shoot in April, haven't shot prone in some time and its killing me.
I hurt my back a few years back; raising my head and torso is putting a bit of strain on my lower back. Ive been stretching after a warm up every day to try and loosen things up; any tips?

Am I better off spread legged or raising one knee up?

I appreciate any advice you can offer.
 

azredhawk44

Moderator
raising my head and torso is putting a bit of strain on my lower back.

Solution: don't raise your head or torso. Let the sling and proper position hold everything up.

~30* angle to target.
elbow under the receiver.
support leg out straight.
trigger knee up, getting diaphragm off the ground and in-line with rifle stock and shoulder juncture, taking recoil and bracing position.
trigger elbow planted, taking weight and recoil.
cheek weld into stock.

Try using a loop sling instead of hasty: It helps with canting, which can induce back muscle stress as you subconsciously try to fight it.

Also, make certain the sling is up behind your tricep. Relax forward into the sling and have it hold you up, rather than stressing back muscles and arm muscles to do so. When done properly, the sling will hold you effortlessly in place and preserve NPOA.

If your back is singing after prone shooting, try to make the sling do more of the work. Also, start doing some toe-touches or other limbering exercises to loosen those muscles prior to a prone session.
 

Jimro

New member
A hasty sling does not surround your support arm with a cuff.

Try the sitting position to see if it is more comfortable for you.

Also try a back brace in multiple positions.

Lastly, take two naproxen before bed the day prior, and every six hours on waking the day of.

Jimro
 

horseman308

New member
AZ's advice is good. I've got some lower back issues that make it real hard to shoot prone off of a rest. However, by doing in the way he indicates, the rifle, sling, and the position of your elbows takes A LOT of the muscle tension out of the equation and makes it a lot easier to shoot comfortably. Still, do lots of limbering and stretching exercises and get familiar with ibuprofen or other pain-killer of choice.
 

azredhawk44

Moderator
Ty for the info AZredhawk; Im not too sure I know what you mean by hasty. Im using a turner biothane sling

You mention that you've been to an Appleseed... may I inquire as to which one, and who the Shoot Boss was?

There are 3 sling techniques we teach at Appleseed:

1. Hasty-Hasty: Very fast, where the sling is pressed against the back-side of the tricep/elbow for slight support.
2. Hasty: A bit slower, where the shooter puts his arm through the sling (between the rifle and the sling), wraps once around so the sling comes back around the back of his wrist, and is still attached to the back sling swivel of the rifle.
3. Loop: Slowest sling, but most accurate from prone in most folks' estimation. With a 1907 style sling (such as your Turner biothane match sling) this is formed midway down the sling between the middle metal ring and the two sliding leather keepers on the forward portion of the sling. Detach the hooks that hold the "back" half of the sling to the "front" half and just let them dangle or re-attach them below the metal ring, then put your arm in the area between the forward "loop" keepers and the middle metal ring. Slide the keepers down against your bicep.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgbGJhobqrA

This guy does a good job describing how to get into a loop sling.

The reason I recommend the loop for prone is it helps eliminate lateral pull on the buttstock from a hasty or hasty-hasty sling since there's no pressure on the buttstock from a taut back half of the sling. I love the hasty sling for standing, however.
 

azredhawk44

Moderator
http://www.fulton-armory.com/sling.htm

Make sure your 1907 sling is rigged as described here by Walt Kuleck from Fulton Armory.

Using the loop sling technique is dependent upon having the sling rigged properly. The 1907 sling is a complicated sling, but when mastered, an invaluable aid to shooting that can equal a bipod in effectiveness downrange.

Walt is a member here though he's been scarce recently... His knowledge of M1, M14, AR-15 and other military rifle platforms is invaluable and nearly inexhaustible.

ETA: I run a mix of 1907-style slings (on my M14, AR-15, Mosin 91/30 in a modern fiberglass stock, and Marlin Camp 45) and USGI cotton web slings (various 22's I use as loaners at Appleseeds, and a couple lever guns). The GI cotton sling can also form a loop, but the technique is different.
 

kraigwy

New member
Its hard to tell one about a position over the internet. You need a coach.

In 1999, my wife broke her back when she came off a colt. Fast forward to early 2003, She got activated. First she went to Ft Jackson, (mos refresher) then to the Benning School for Boys for further training. During that training she was suppose to qualify, to include the prone position.

I joined her at Jackson and Drove her to Benning.

She couldnt find a prone position anywhere close to what would allow her to shoot. I had coached quite a bit (coached the AK NG Rifle team):

But, I also knew I wouldnt be allowed on the pre-deployment range. So I did the next best thing (actually the best thing), I stopped by the AMU, explained my (my wife's problem) and asked if there was anyway one of their HP Shooters could help her out. They did, she qualified in the prone position portion of the course and everyone was happy.

I dont know if you could get to the AMU but, each state has a CMP affiliated HP club. Most put on a HP Clinic. Most are taught be highly qualified people. Contact you nearest club, find out to teaches the HP clinic and work out a deal.

There is no one that couldn't be taught some sort of legal (NRA Rule) position. You just need a qualified coach to work you into a position that will suite you. I dont think it can be done efectively with out actually watching you in that position.
 

Vt.birdhunter

New member
The April shoot will be my first Appleseed event. Ive been shooting for over 20 years, but I feel I can shoot much better. Appleseed seemed like a good place to build some solid fundamentals.

BTW, I was planning on primarily shooting a scoped bolt .22 (I cant swing 400 rounds of .308 right now)
Are scopes strongly frowned upon?
 

DanThaMan1776

New member
First off... congrats on taking the first step to being a true rifleman--Appleseed is a GREAT program I've been partaking in religiously since 2007.

Secondly, I have a bad back as well!! Only problem is i'm 18 years old :mad:

That's what a full spinal fusion will do to ya :barf:

Anyways, I experienced the same problems and I would recommend that you do not bring that shooter knee up like they say, instead, bring your head down a little lower and spread your legs. They will teach you how to use your support elbow and sling to literally fashion a sort of arm bench rest.

The most problematic position will be sitting :eek: It was HORRIBLE. Instead of doing the conventional position I went with the one knee down and sat on my heel using the upright knee to put my support elbow in front of. The instructors are all wonderful and understanding so I wouldn't sweat anything too much.

Good luck and if you have any more questions about specifics or didn't understand the jumble of words I just spit at you PM me.
 

azredhawk44

Moderator
The April shoot will be my first Appleseed event.

Oh, I misread. I thought you said you had already been to a 'Seed. If so, you would have known about the three sling techniques I described above.

The instructors will show you the loop sling. Tell 'em expressly to show you how the loop sling is better from prone, with regard to canting the rifle.

Also, tell 'em expressly to show how the sling holds your whole body up in prone, and how you can just kind of "lay forward" with your buttstock shoulder and relax, and your whole position locks into place without any muscle use at all.

Your back aches because you are using muscles. If you use less muscle, your back will hurt less.

Key points: your forward support hand under the barrel should form a straight line back to your elbow, to your shoulder, down the side of your torso, and straight down your leg (left leg, if you are right-handed). This is one key to keeping your back relaxed.

The other one is relaxing FORWARD into the sling and using the loop sling so you avoid canting.

Keep those in mind, and go out of your way to ask for extra clarification on those issues, when you attend. If you master these concepts from prone, you'll do quite well.

As far as scopes: Appleseed LOVES any sighting apparatus that is scientifically adjustable. We love click-adjustable irons, we love red dots, we love scopes, we love aimpoints. We dislike sights you have to WHACK on (coughstockrugerandmarlinandsavageandremingtonsightscough) in order to adjust them... because it's sloppy guess and check technique. We'll teach you to convert the distance of your groups from target from inches to minutes, then minutes to "clicks" on your sighting device. We call this IMC. Can't do IMC with a sight you have to whack on.

As far as your .22: Buy an autoloader .22. Especially with your back concerns.

You'll be shooting from prone for probably 60% or more of the weekend. When working the bolt on the .22, the temptation will be there to remove the rifle from the pocket of your shoulder, roll your body sideways, run the bolt, then rotate back down into position. You'll do this subconsciously to a small degree, even if you don't do it to an exaggerated degree. This will wear out your lower back. With an autoloader .22, you don't have to run the bolt for each shot and you stick position for each string of fire.

Get one that uses the same magazines as your bolt action... I have a Savage 64F and a pair of Marlin 795's that I use as loaner rifles... each of these rifles use the same magazines as a bolt action model from their parent companies. Transfer your scope to it... the 3/8" rings tend to be pretty universal. Put some 1.25" sling swivels on it, run your Turner sling into it, and you're good to go, minimizing back ache and financial outlay, while maximizing your ability to learn for the weekend.
 

Mike38

New member
Vt.birdhunter wrote:
Are scopes strongly frowned upon?

Not at all. But if you have good eye sight, iron's would be best.

By the way, if you have a detachable mag ten round semi auto (min. three mags) I'd use that over a bolt action. If all you have is a bolt gun, then go for it. You'd have to be damn good to break a score of 210. They say it's been done with a bolt action at an Appleseed, but I'd have to see it to believe it.

Hint for scope users at an Appleseed. Sight the scope so the horizontal cross hair is even with the bottom edge of the medium and small AQT Silhouette, but hits in the center. Hold center of mass on the large (top) target. Hold horizontal cross hair on bottom edge of medium and small silhouette. It's much faster to get back on target that way. Or at least it was for me. After doing that little trick, I made Rifleman.
 

Vt.birdhunter

New member
I checked out the video you posted about sling use, very helpful. I practiced a bit last night trying to lock up the rifles weight onto bone, instead of holding with muscle, Im getting there. (Im always waiting for the accidental "BANG" when I dont see a chamber check in these videos, lol)

I love my bolt CZ452 left handed American, I picked up 3 ten round mags, Im going to try and stick with it. On a good day I can cycle it cleanly without breaking my point of aim too bad. Sounds like a semi would be a real advantage though, can I qualify with 2 rifles? If I can Ill try to use my M1A as much as I can from prone, maybe switch to the .22 bolt for other positions.

Thank you guys for not only the advice, but for the support on this one.
 

azredhawk44

Moderator
You'd have to be damn good to break a score of 210. They say it's been done with a bolt action at an Appleseed, but I'd have to see it to believe it.

Got a friend here in town that shot a 242 with a CZ453 American.



Time was not an issue, he had plenty.

Yes, you can take more than one rifle. HOWEVER: You will find that your "zero" isn't quite as "zero" as you think it is as you learn more about shooting properly. If you change rifles, you will have to re-zero the new rifle and you will not get the full benefit of progress you are making.

I strongly encourage folks to run their .22 at an Appleseed either the entire weekend, or to run it until they shoot "Rifleman" with it and then change to their centerfire for the remainder of the weekend. But don't swap between rifles. It just makes you look silly, like you're looking for equipment-related excuses rather than improving your marksmanship.
 
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