Tiny bullets in my 223 - I need load advice

603Country

New member
I have a Ruger 77 Hawkeye in 223, with a 1 in 9 twist, and I have found that it's a tackdriver with the Sierra 65 gr Gameking. The rifle seemed to have a preference for that heavier bullet and didn't do nearly as well with 55 grain bullets. I could just leave it at that but would like to try out some of the smaller bullets, like the 40 grains from several makers and maybe the 35 grain 'unleaded' from Nosler. Powders on hand suitable for 223 are AA2230, H335, IMR3031, IMR4064, and Varget. Are any of you folks shooting those tiny bullets in your Hawkeye, and if so what loads are you finding that work real well? I'm thinking that your knowledge might speed up my load workup. And if you don't have a Hawkeye, feel free to chime in with your favorite loads for the tiny bullets in whatever bolt rifle you do shoot. This is intended to be a long range (500 yds max) load for coyotes. Thanks.
 

cornbush

New member
I have used the Barnes varmint grenade 36 gr in the same rifle and they shoot great, but the bullet length is pretty close to a 55 grainer, don't have the load data handy at the moment.
I have also shot a few 40gr Nosler ballistic tips with good results, I'll try and find the data.
 
Light bullets have lower ballistic coefficients so they slow down faster than similarly shaped heavy bullets do. For that reason they don't retain energy well at the kind of range you are talking about unless they are started out real fast. Much faster than the .223 normally is up to. So I would suggest you go heavier for 500 yards and not lighter. Pretty much all target shooters running .223 beyond 300 yards do.
 

Jim243

New member
would like to try out some of the smaller bullets, like the 40 grains from several makers and maybe the 35 grain 'unleaded' from Nosler

You may find that these bullets will not reach your target. With a 1:14 or 1:12 twist they would be fine. But a 1:9 twist MAYBE too fast. The lighter 223 bullets have a thinner copper coating on them and unless are made for a high speed, high twist rate will come apart before reaching your target.

If you fire and your target looks like you used a shotgun on it, (I have with 50 grain bullets) the bullet is too light for that twist rate. I would only buy a few of them to test them out to see what the results are. The 40 grain bullet should work if you do not push it to high speeds. The Nosler solid (no lead) might work but I don't know what your results would be.

Jim
 
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603Country

New member
Unclenick, I had read recently that the 35 gr Nosler 'unleaded' bullet had a better BC than the 40 grain lead core bullet, due to the construction without lead. I haven't taken the time to confirm that, but thought it might be fun to see how it would shoot. I do have a max possible range, which is 500 yards to the woodline in one big pasture, but if I'm Coyote hunting seriously, I'll probably drag the 220 with me. Mostly I just need a new load to work up, and if that little bullet will shoot little groups, I'll use it on some Coyotes. I've been doing some fine work on them lately, but more keep showing up. As soon as I stock up with deer meat, I'm back after the yotes again.:)

And thanks, Cornbush. I look forward to the load info.
 

4runnerman

New member
I have to go with Jim and Unclenick here. I have had same luck. My rifle (1 in 9) hates anything less than 60 gn. You can get it to shoot them accuratly but you have to slow them down so much that 500 yards would be a next to impossable feat with accuracy. Not that there is anything wrong with it,but i have to ask WHY ?? do you want to go with a lighter bullet weight?. What do you stand to gain?. As for loads. This one is so very very very accurate in my rifle it's scary

25.5 varget
60 gn V-max
CCI-BR2 primer
2.29 COL---Not mag friendly in an AR platform.
 

A_Gamehog

New member
I have two rifles .223 with the 1-9 twist. They both shoot 34 grain dogtowns to the 75 Hornady HPBT Match.

The 34 load:
27-28 Grains of AA2230 work up to 27.5 or use Tac, W748, using the same componets.
Lake city brass
CCI 400 primer
34 Grain Dogtown or Extreme
3,700-3800+ FPS

if you get the right load you can expect 1MOA out to 200 yards. Not much farther due to the low BC or the 34's.

I have killed thousands of Squirrels and P-dogs with this load.
 

flashhole

New member
My 223 bolt gun 1:9 twist hates the mid range weight bullets too. Loves 63 grains and up but also shoots the Nosler 40 grain Ballistic Tip bullets really well. The light weights get pushed about in wind but out to 300 yards they seem to hold their own in the accuracy department and are devastating on crows.
 

603Country

New member
4runnerman and you other guys, don't get too caught up in the 'why' I want to shoot the tiny bullets. There isn't a need, but more that I just want to see if the gun will shoot well with them. I just couldn't make that rifle love a 55 grain bullet, but thanks to a Forum guy's suggestion I tried the 65 grain Sierra. Wow! Such a good marriage. Still, I'm not satisfied with just giving up on my earlier attempts with the lighter bullets, so I thought I'd just try the tiny ones - specifically the 35 grain Nosler 'unleaded' bullet. Surely I can find a good load, and I see that one might be workable with AA2230, and I have some of that. If I can't make that bullet shoot real well in my 223, I'll just ship off the remainder to one of you guys. No point in leaving 50 or 60 bullets, that I'll never use, cluttering up the bullet pile.
 

flashhole

New member
I was about to give up on my Kimber. Couldn't find any combination of components using 45-60 grain bullets that would shoot something that even remotely resembled a group. I had some 40 grain bullets on hand that I use with my Fireball - tried them and B I N G O one hole groups. That made me start looking at differnet bullets. My favorite for the 223 is the 63 grain Sierra Semi Point but there are several heavier bullets that shoot well too and they all work well with several different powder and primer combinations. Like yours, my gun just won't shoot 55 grain bullets and I agree you should know which bullets your gun will shoot.
 

Brian Pfleuger

Moderator Emeritus
We shoot the 35gr LF Noslers at 4,435fps at 1:12 from a 22-250.

1:9 at 3,500 (probable 223 speed) should be roughly equivalent to 4,666 fps at 1:12..... though I don't know if the real forces translate that easily.

You'll have to try it and see.
 
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I think Peetza has it about right. I get to roughly the same number by a different calculation, and the fact the two agree is a fair sign we are on to something.

What happens with a standard construction bullet is core stripping, where the jacket experiences so much angular acceleration (rotational acceleration) that inertia in the lead core drags hard enough to cause it to slip against the inside of the jacket so it doesn't get up to the full jacket rotation speed. As soon as the bullet clears the muzzle, friction slows the lighter jacket's rotation and, to a lesser degree, speeds up the core, with the two coming into agreement somewhere inbetween the different spin rates they had at the muzzle. Even if the equilibrated spin rate is fast enough to keep the bullet stable, with the engraving of the rifling into the jacket acting like speed bumps on the inside, you can pretty well guess the core shape is affected and that's not good for mass symmetry of the bullet. Any asymmetric bullet mass wobbles badly in flight due to the spin. This opens groups up significantly.

Harold Vaughn used a magnetometer to measure the slip in some 270 bullets, and it turned out to begin at about 3150 fps MV with a 10" twist, and that would be about like an 8" twist in a .224. A 9" twist .224" bullet at 3540 fps would be getting about the same angular acceleration forces at the perimeter, so that's my number that comes out so close to Peetza's.

If you have bonded core bullets you can obviously go faster without causing slip, but I don't know exactly how much. Solids shouldn't suffer the problem at all, but there often is another precision problem. Even if you avoid core slipping, if a bullet isn't made to perfection in mass distribution (and none are, though match bullets typically do best) and slight mass distribution error causes wobble from spinning. The faster the spin or the worse the mass asymmetry, the more wobble. So excess spin can cause the bullet to fly a helical path around the trajectory. Again, not helpful to group size.

As to BC's, they depend on shape aerodynamics and sectional density. You can make a light bullet with low BC by having a lot of hollow space in a long nose form or by using a less dense material than lead, like copper. The current Sierra 155 grain Palma bullet, for example, has a BC about the same as the 175 grain SMK. It has less bearing surface, so it aligns in the bore less well. The result is it often has more yaw at muzzle exit that takes longer to go sleep on the way down range, but the effects of wind and air resistance are the same as for the 175 fired at the same velocity. It just will carry proportionately less energy to the target, which matters to sniper ammunition. Its short bearing surface makes it pickier about alignment in the case neck and chamber, though the Palma guys are equipped to handle that.
 
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603Country

New member
I have to say that I sure am impressed with the depth of the info provided. I will buy some of the 35 gr LF Noslers and try them out. If anything other than 'normal' shooting results, I'll report on it. I'll be switching the workshop over from woodworking pretty soon and then I'll be in reloading mode. I can load a few rounds and walk 20 steps to the shooting bench and try out the loads. The barrel will cool while I load up the next batch. And again and again....so it doesn't take too long to work up good loads. I'm betting that these little pills will hold together even at max loads. We shall see. Thanks for all the input. I do appreciate it.
 
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