Three ways to find the lands
- Thread starter hounddawg
- Start date
Kinda convienent on how that was released now. 
With the first method, how many threads (and not just on this forum) have started "i was using the Hornady tool"?
The second method is just flat out nuts!
Using red Loctite, which needs heated to remove once dried?
And if you get some in your chamber?
Also with my luck, my wife would need me, or some other thing & by the time i got back the bullet would be essentially permanently affixed into the case.
I use a version of method #3.
With the first method, how many threads (and not just on this forum) have started "i was using the Hornady tool"?
The second method is just flat out nuts!
Using red Loctite, which needs heated to remove once dried?
And if you get some in your chamber?
Also with my luck, my wife would need me, or some other thing & by the time i got back the bullet would be essentially permanently affixed into the case.
I use a version of method #3.
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Looks like the red Loctite is all being applied inside the case neck, which would be OK. It only sets up in the absence of air, so in the rest of the chamber, it should be possible to wipe off spills. Loctite does sell a solvent for it if you have a contrary experience.
The thing that surprises me is how much longer the Hornady OAL gauge measurement is. Something is amiss. I've seen the OAL gauge measurements come up short because of a bullet wedging against the edge of the start of the feebore, but long? Unless your hands are strong enough to start a bullet into the rifling, I don't know how a too-long number could result. It makes me suspect the Loctite and jam numbers are actually short.
The thing that surprises me is how much longer the Hornady OAL gauge measurement is. Something is amiss. I've seen the OAL gauge measurements come up short because of a bullet wedging against the edge of the start of the feebore, but long? Unless your hands are strong enough to start a bullet into the rifling, I don't know how a too-long number could result. It makes me suspect the Loctite and jam numbers are actually short.
kilotanker22
New member
The Hornady tool uses a plastic push rod from the bottom of the bullet that is pretty flexible. I have wondered how much force it would take to make that rod flex enough to to then push the bullet out further when the rod was relaxed after the set screw is tightened.
I have not watched this video yet, but I have managed to get a difference of about .020" doing this intentionally. Surprisingly, it does not take as much force as one might assume to flex that rod.
When I use it, I use the rod to tap the bullet into the lands a few times, while holding the shoulder against the shoulder of the chamber. Then just hold the rod against the bullet with little force while tightening the set screw. I have gotten much more consistent results this way.
Not saying this is what took place in the video, but I have been able to duplicate those results many times.
On a somewhat related theme...
I've heard numerous times of match shooters loading 0.0XXX" jam into the lands.
They are running minimum neck tension, with no crimp.
So how much force is actually needed to deform the copper jacket & lead core to go that far into the lands?
My thinking, your at the lands & the bullet just pushed back into the case.
I've heard numerous times of match shooters loading 0.0XXX" jam into the lands.
They are running minimum neck tension, with no crimp.
So how much force is actually needed to deform the copper jacket & lead core to go that far into the lands?
My thinking, your at the lands & the bullet just pushed back into the case.
That was my thought, too. It is only the area of the lands that is being engraved initially, and it doesn't take a lot of force because it is basically a wedge at a fairly shallow angle. When you've pushed a bullet a little way in, the ogive finally finds the throat, completing obturation of the bore to prevent gas bypass (the reason pressure goes up with jammed bullets). The way to tell if the different methods are putting the same amount of "bite" on the bullet is to paint the bullets with a marker or layout blue (Dykem, etc.) and look to see how the throat markings compare. I generally try to be gentle with the gauge to find the zero contact point, but even with the initial contact light, it is still easy to get enough bullet wedged in so that it stays in the throat when you withdraw the gauge and I have to tap on the gun to get it loose.
The pendulum is starting to swing in the other direction with neck tension among match shooters. Short BR shooter a few years back were using light neck tension and a heavy jam. A sure recipe for disaster should you have a squib due to a faulty primer etc. With F class, PRS and long range BR at least the current trend is .002 tension and some as high as .004 tension.
I don't sweat what the exact measurement to the lands is. I really have no clue. I use the measurements from the Hornady as a comparative measurement to make my ammo and tune it. I use five random bullets seated with medium hard taps and a cleaning rod to retrieve the bullet. I am looking for precision in the measurements not accuracy.
For example for the ammo I shot yesterday I used my Hornady and came up with a reading of 1.815 for a average of the five bullets bullets with a ES of .002. I was using Nosler 107 CC's which I know from experience shoot best with a "jump of around .030 - .035. I seated my bullets at 1.785. At the range the ammo shot sub MOA 10 round groups out to 850 yards, and consistently sub .5 MOA at 100. That is good enough for my purposes.
Could I diddle around with seating depth and get the groups smaller, probably but I don't shoot short or long range benchrest and the wind was moving my bullet about 30 inches to the right at 850 so why bother.
I don't sweat what the exact measurement to the lands is. I really have no clue. I use the measurements from the Hornady as a comparative measurement to make my ammo and tune it. I use five random bullets seated with medium hard taps and a cleaning rod to retrieve the bullet. I am looking for precision in the measurements not accuracy.
For example for the ammo I shot yesterday I used my Hornady and came up with a reading of 1.815 for a average of the five bullets bullets with a ES of .002. I was using Nosler 107 CC's which I know from experience shoot best with a "jump of around .030 - .035. I seated my bullets at 1.785. At the range the ammo shot sub MOA 10 round groups out to 850 yards, and consistently sub .5 MOA at 100. That is good enough for my purposes.
Could I diddle around with seating depth and get the groups smaller, probably but I don't shoot short or long range benchrest and the wind was moving my bullet about 30 inches to the right at 850 so why bother.
My experience as well. I was given a metal copy of the Hornady Tool and its much better.
Still I use it for ball park.
Then I seat a bullet in a sized case at the H Tool Plus .020 and see if it closes.
If no closse, I tap the bolt with a plastic hanlded something (usauly a screw driver) and Check the Ogive when it comes out (did I push the bullet in a bit or not, I have yet to puash it in)
Then I moved it .010 shorter and repeat until no jam or I see the lands marks but no jam.
I don't like jamming bullets. Other think it is fine, whatever.
I don't follow the reasoning. A squib is almost certainly going to put the bullet into the lands regardless.
I use the wooden dowel/razor blade method now almost exclusively.
https://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4594782&postcount=2
Exact to under a gnat's eyebrow regardless of chamber dimension or headspace type.
(and yes, I have the Hornady tool and just about every special case under the Sun.)
https://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4594782&postcount=2
Exact to under a gnat's eyebrow regardless of chamber dimension or headspace type.
(and yes, I have the Hornady tool and just about every special case under the Sun.)
so what does it matter if as bullet is .015 or .016 or .018 off the lands if it is grouping well enough to take down that elk or shoot that 200 12X. Why sweat numbers that really do not matter. For me getting the point of impact where the point of aim is all that counts.
As far as jamming , I don't care for it myself but not becasue of any danger issue, more because if that primer does not pop I don't want to be cleaning powder out of the bolt lugs. Of course I am not one the idiots who who thinks they need to squeeze every FPS I can out of a load.
As far as jamming , I don't care for it myself but not becasue of any danger issue, more because if that primer does not pop I don't want to be cleaning powder out of the bolt lugs. Of course I am not one the idiots who who thinks they need to squeeze every FPS I can out of a load.
Ok, my definition of a disaster is a blown up gun, powder in the bolt area is simply annoying (had to ponder that but it has happened a couple of times shooting with a badly set bullet that I cycled the bolt closed hard thinking it was all good and the bullet came out I am more cautious now)
Agreed on FPS. I shot as slow a velocity as I find accurate. The 6.5 particularly will eat up a barrel in 2500 rounds if you push it hard.
The biggest seating issue I had with a hunting rifle is the Sako Finnbear 270. It simply would not shoot even 1.5 inches with modern ammo.
With some testing, for whatever reasons, Sako had really long throat in their (at least Finnbear) guns (seen the same thing on an 06 version).
I do not jam but I did fine the lands and then setback and got it down to 1 inch groups which is more than good for hunting.
Agreed on FPS. I shot as slow a velocity as I find accurate. The 6.5 particularly will eat up a barrel in 2500 rounds if you push it hard.
The biggest seating issue I had with a hunting rifle is the Sako Finnbear 270. It simply would not shoot even 1.5 inches with modern ammo.
With some testing, for whatever reasons, Sako had really long throat in their (at least Finnbear) guns (seen the same thing on an 06 version).
I do not jam but I did fine the lands and then setback and got it down to 1 inch groups which is more than good for hunting.
Maxwell Haus
Moderator
I find the stripped bolt method the most accurate , measuring tools like the Hornady are good for rough work . I shoot BR ,jump/jam is a huge issue . I know exactly where my bullet sits in relation to the lands , jammed 15 at 4 neck tension requires a good grasp on what you are dealing with.
Maxwell Haus
Moderator
That's the goal , that's why I like to know where my lands are . No-brainer for me .
Maxwell Haus
Moderator
Great point mehavey . Without knowing what you have in the first place measurements mean not a thing .
Same thing goes for what folks call good groups ,some folks have never shot in the 1's so they can't fathom what a small group really is .
Same thing goes for what folks call good groups ,some folks have never shot in the 1's so they can't fathom what a small group really is .