The two shot group

[nate45]

In my youth my father would shoot 3 to 5 shot groups with his hunting rifles as a measure of accuracy and to check them for zero. That seemed to be the common wisdom of the day a 3 shot minimum as an acceptable test. He had some amazingly accurate rifles some of which would shoot 1/2 inch 100 yard groups. Which is very good for a hunting rifle as an 1.5 inch group would be more than acceptable hunting accuracy.

Then sometime in the early 80's I read an article in G&A by Ross Seyfried in which he put forth the concept of the 1.5 inch two shot group as a measure of hunting accuracy. He stated that if consistently at any time of the year when he took one of his hunting rifles to the range, he could get a 1.5 inch two shot group from a cold clean barrel, that this was more than acceptable for hunting accuracy.

It rang true with me and ever since I've used that as a measure of performance for my rifles.
Sometimes the two shots will touch each other, sometimes they are in a half inch, but as long as they are in an inch and a half group, I don't worry about it.

What led me to write about this, was reading on another thread about 'fouling' shots. Now I don't know about you, but if I have a hunting rifle that shoots a wild flyer from a cold barrel, clean or fouled, on the first shot, I'm getting it re-barreled or trading it off.

 

[Brad Clodfelter]

Nate,

I always pretty much go with the 5 shot group as making a good group. It pretty well is my standard to go by. But there is nothing wrong with a rifle that shoots good 3 shot groups. 5 Shot groups just make it more harder to keep the groups as small. If a rifle will consistently shoot good 3 shot groups, I see no reason why it won't shoot good 5 shot groups. Consistency is the key word when talking accuracy. And I mean that they are consistently small, not consistently big.

 

[nate45]

Why would you need to shoot more than one or two shots at a game animal? I'm betting if I did the third shot would be just as accurate as the first two or then again if I need a second shot its either a really tough animal or I made a bad first shot.

 

[Brad Clodfelter]

Nate,

For hunting purposes you only need to worry about 1 shot if your good.

I was talking about target shooting and accuracy consistency. 3 shot groups are ok to use as a standard to judge rifle accuracy especially from a hunting gun.

 

[ndking1126]

On my hunting rifle, I know, absolutely know, my first shot will be on. The second either on or close. My barrel heats up so quickly in the summer that the third shot is already affected. In the winter with a little patience I can get a true 3 shot grouping, but not in the summer. I would have to take a shot, go eat lunch, take another shot, go wash my car, take my final shot. You get the idea.

I wish my rifle was a 5 shot group kind of rifle, but it's not. It's ok with me because it's a hunting rifle and I basically never need a second shot. Not to mention most hunting is in the winter (30-06, deer hunting).

 

[TNFrank]

The first shot from a cold bbl. is the one that counts in most hunting situations. Sometimes a second shot is needed and it's nice to conferm that the second shot will be close to the first but the first is the one you want hitting center of the bullseye when you pull the trigger.

 

[wpcexpert]

For hunting purposes, no the "fouling shot shouldn't be required. But the match boys always shoot 1-2 foulers before their grouped shots. But they are using copper solvent to remove the copper from the barrel. But they are also shooting 1/16 5 shot groups. But when I clean my barrel with copper solvent (after every 40 shots or so), I'll always fire a fouler before shooting for groups. So, I will do the same prior to hunting. I'll fire one fouler, and then run a slightly damp oil patch down it.

 

[davlandrum]

I do a fouling shot just because that was the way I was taught.

I would call a 2 shots from a hunting rifle a varification rather than a group. It is a perfect way to verify you are good for hunting, but I would not use 2 shots to be making scope adjustments, ammo judgements, or that type of thing.

 

[Scorch]

5-shot groups show you how consistent a rifle is under sustained firing. I suspect the 5-shot group originated with 5-shot military rifles, but that's just a guess. A 3-shot group is supposed to show how accurate a hunting/sporting rifle can be, the idea being that subsequent shot would land in about the same place as the first 3. In many hunting situations you only fire 1 or 2 shots, and after that your rifle is no longer grouping because of heat and the game is far, far away or on the ground. But using a 2-shot group to verify sight-in does not sound like a good idea to me. The first few shots from a clean barrel almost invariably do not group with the following shots. Many rifles throw the first few shots from a clean barrel quite a distance from the rest of the group. I have a rifle that puts the first shot from a clean barrel about 5" away from the rest of the shots in a 5-shot group. If I sighted my rifle with a 2-shot group, I could be quite a ways off at 300 yds.

 

[crowbeaner]

Since I hunt with a semi auto rifle I use a 4 shot group as my benchmark because that's what the clip holds. I make sure I take my rifle to the range a week or so before the opener and shoot 4 rounds down range. I let the rifle cool completely and load 4 more with the first round forward assisted to get it to group with the 3 that are loaded by the action. I then shoot 1 shot to see where the POI is with the first one out the tube cold and fouled. I note the position of the impact and shoot the other 3 spaced out about 5 minutes each to verify the POI when the action is cycling the round into the chamber. I make sure the first round is right on the crosshairs 2" high dead center. I'm good to go. I don't shoot many different loads through my rifle because it only gets used for BIG GAME; I have other guns for all around shooting. I then dry patch the bore and put it in the hardcase. BANG,FLOP, VENISON.

 

[jcoyle1981]

For my hunting rifles, I use 5 shot groups. I measure the distance from the center of the group to the aim point on the target and adjust the scope accordingly so that the group centers around point of aim.


ndking1126

On my hunting rifle, I know, absolutely know, my first shot will be on. The second either on or close. My barrel heats up so quickly in the summer that the third shot is already affected

but, my Remington 742 is like ndking1126 describes, so for it, I consentrate with a dead on shot from a cold barrel.

I did read an interesting post on AR15.com forum that sheds some light, at least to me on the subject of "The Trouble With 3-Shot Groups".

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=279218

 

[nate45]

But using a 2-shot group to verify sight-in does not sound like a good idea to me. The first few shots from a clean barrel almost invariably do not group with the following shots. Many rifles throw the first few shots from a clean barrel quite a distance from the rest of the group. I have a rifle that puts the first shot from a clean barrel about 5" away from the rest of the shots in a 5-shot group. If I sighted my rifle with a 2-shot group, I could be quite a ways off at 300 yds.

So you hunt with a hot barrel?

What led me to write about this, was reading on another thread about 'fouling' shots. Now I don't know about you, but if I have a hunting rifle that shoots a wild flyer from a cold barrel, clean or fouled, on the first shot, I'm getting it re-barreled or trading it off.

 

[cracked butt]

If you really want to see how your hunting rifle will perform, tack up a target. take 1 shot, pull the target, and go home. Take the same target and shoot 1 shot at it on a dozen or so different days.

 

[nate45]

If you really want to see how your hunting rifle will perform, tack up a target. take 1 shot, pull the target, and go home. Take the same target and shoot 1 shot at it on a dozen or so different days.

That sounds like a good plan to me.

It's not like I can't shoot good, if I go out and shoot one shot and it hits an 1.5 inch target @ 100 yards, I'm good to go.

I fired this four shot group in 1979. With my Douglas barreled custom 1909 Mauser, first shot was with a cold, clean barrel.

I've been shooting hi-powered rifles nearly all my life, I've built several custom ones myself. I've used Hart, Shilen and Douglas barrels and in my opinion if you need to foul the barrel or heat it up to turn out hunting level accuracy it's not a good barrel.

Now I could see the value of firing 'a' shot to foul and warm the barrel before a competition, but before you take the hunting field, no way.

 

[jpwilly]

I agree, wheter it's 1, 2, 3, 5, 10 etc if the rifle does what you need it to do than your fine. When hunting deer for example you generally are going to get 1 shot and your rifle needs to hit the mark just once!

 

[Art Eatman]

I have no argument with the two-shot idea. I've drifted away from five-shot groups for my hunting rifles, using three-shots for sight-in and load-testing.

As for a fouling shot, I do that before I go hunting. Call it superstition; I don't care. Generally, I haven't found it necessary with my rifles, with a first shot from a clean barrel usually being in with the next two. But, it doesn't hurt.

TNFrank and I are on the same page about the main deal for a hunting rifle is that the first shot from a cold barrel is the same today as it was last month. (Which is why I never had to worry about the Mini-14's "problems"; I used mine for hunting.)

 

[Scorch]

So you hunt with a hot barrel?

No, I hunt with a fouled barrel. I take my rifle to the range before hunting season and shoot it, then I don't clean the bore until hunting season is over unless it gets wet. If I do have to clean the bore due to rain, snow, sleet, or crying over the shot I missed, I will fire a few rounds through it to foul the bore before taking it out and expecting it to be dead on.

 

[nate45]

Many rifles throw the first few shots from a clean barrel quite a distance from the rest of the group. I have a rifle that puts the first shot from a clean barrel about 5" away from the rest of the shots in a 5-shot group.

They do? You don't think thats odd?
I mean if it works for you its great. You can shoot as many fouling rounds as you like, but I personally would not want a rifle like that. What kind is it by the way?

I'm mean look at this flyer in my old reloading book, it happens, I think I pulled that one though.

Sorry I don't have any groups from this century to show, I just don't care about small groups anymore. I did shoot a 7/8ths inch 10 shot group @ 100 last year with my 700 Varmint .308 and a little less than a 1.25 inch five shot one at 200.

 

[Edward429451]

I'm workin in my hunters group this summer, that is, one shot from a cold clean bbl, first shot of the day, pull the target. That makes perfect sense to me. Then since I have my fouling shot I go ahead and shoot more groups with it.

Obviously the more shots the more telling the group is. but it takes awhile to start to see the fruit of it. The ammo has to be the same, preferably the same lot. The groups after the hunter shot / fouling shot have to be saved to compare groups after a fouling shot, and the beauty of it is the number of shots for that group is not limited, and you test yourself in many diff conditions, temps, positions, state of mind & physiology. After awhile I expect to be able to see exactly where the first strike is expected to go and where subsequent shots go. Us reloaders have it easier here than you guys who do not. What if you buy say 3 or 500 rounds and find out 40 rounds through it that it isn't acceptable, then you're stuck with a bunch of ammo that you have little confidence in. What if you find that the ammo is awesome but you only bought so many? Back to the stores searching for lot numbers !

Number of shots in a group varies for me. Depends on the gun and potential use. For hunting I am doing it as described, but groups after the fouling shot are sometimes 5 but sometimes 10. 10 shots tell more than twice as much as 5 shot groups, and are a quick visual reference for consistency.

I shoot 20 shot groups with my AR since it doesn't get used for hunting. Full mag groups are nice. Shows me that 'I can put a full mag through x inches. Gun capacity shot groups are very enlightening, full mag from the AR, six 44's, etc..I like those 50 shot groups that that one poster posts though! how telling is 50 shots? Very telling.

 

[garryc]

In my range book that I used for the tac rifle at work there is a picture of the target. The shots are charted. The CCS is always marked seperatly as that is the only one that counts. That's also why the gun is cleaned the same way every time with the exact same cleaning products.