The truth about Iraq

[marks655]

OK - we have all heard why we need to stay the course in Iraq and help establish the new democracy.

But now we see that a 2 year-old report from our own Intelligence Community predicted the escalating carnage we see in Iraq.

The report says that the insurgency in Iraq is based deeply within local Iraqi communities, and is fueled by the resentment of US troops, and that the continued presence of US troops may push the country into all-out civil war. Is it any wonder Bush ignored this report ?

But what about our own troops' accounts of all the good we are doing and support for the war?

A new poll that shows 3 out of 4 US troops serving in Iraq favor a pullout either immediately or within a defined, (a year or less) timeframe.

Bush has got himself (and us) into a war that he has no idea how to finish. The last time this happened it was LBJ and Viet Nam. It lasted over 10 years and it cost the lives of millions of people, and it pushed our nation into deep defecit spending, double-digit inflation and one of the worst recessions since 1929. (For you young ones, we went into Viet Nam supposedly to support a 'democratic government' and to protect it from a communist invader). And last time I looked Viet Nam was not a democracy.

We have seen what 'democracy' brought us in Palestine.

It's time to get out of Iraq.

We have enough on our plate with making our own nation stronger and more energy independent.

 

[exar]

It's too late to leave now. We have to learn from history and finish the job. We can't leave until there is money in the Iraqi people's pocket. They need an equivilent to Roosevelt's "New Deal" to bring them out of their slump. When they all have jobs they'll be too busy to mess with bombs.

 

[pipoman]

A new poll

Link? Source?

 

[marks655]

I saw both articles as major news stories this morning, Washinton Post. The poll was done by Zogby International.

Too late to leave now ?

I heard that one in Viet Nam. They called it 'peace with honor.' When we did leave VN it was with no honor. The only 'peace' we achieved was among the dead - in their graves.

We can't leave until there is money in the Iraqi people's pocket. They need an equivilent to Roosevelt's "New Deal" to bring them out of their slump. When they all have jobs they'll be too busy to mess with bombs.

Last time I looked Iraq was a major oil-exporting nation. The money is there but it is lost to corruption - including US officials' corruption. We are spending 1/2 trillion dollars each year that we don't have. Any 'new deal' in Iraq needs to come from someone elses budget. The 'new deal' came from our own government. If it had been administered by an occupying army with tanks and troops I hardly think we would call it that.

Besides - Iraq has a large minority 'middle class' of people who are educated and who had jobs - the Sunnis. We stripped them of their place in Iraq and they want those jobs and that power back.

What you propose is to educate and provide jobs for a majority of people (Shihites) who are mostly peasants with no skills or education, and are for the most part Islamic fundamentalists. You are talking about building a new 'middle class' of Iraqis. Something that will take decades. And something that is none of our business. And what do you think the Sunnis will do in the meantime ? Sit back and watch us transfer their wealth and influence to others ?

As far as 'learning from our mistakes' - we are doing a poor job at that. And it's costing lives every day.

But if we can learn from anything it should be that 'staying the course' in a war where we occupy the land of a hostile nation is nothing more than a waste of human life. Seems like a simple lesson to me.

 

[exar]

If we leave now, the country will certainly fall into full fledged civil war and another tryrant will assume power, we will be where we were when the war started. That's at best. At worst, factions will carry out brutal killings and constant warfare destabilizing the entire Middle East even more so than now, disrupting oil flow and GWB and his cronies(including our European allies) will never settle for that. This war is not the same as Vietnam. A great many factors are different. We will not leave our precious oil in the hands of an unstable economy. Nor are we trying to fend off an invading army for Iraq. We are fighting religous zealots. Many nations have a key interest in this area of the world for many reasons. Neighboring nations are already being dragged into this as the conflict spills out of Iraq's borders. No, this war is not like Vietnam, it will be much bloodier in the years to come.

 

[marks655]

We will not leave our precious oil in the hands of an unstable economy. Nor are we trying to fend off an invading army for Iraq. We are fighting religous zealots. Many nations have a key interest in this area of the world for many reasons. Neighboring nations are already being dragged into this as the conflict spills out of Iraq's borders. No, this war is not like Vietnam, it will be much bloodier in the years to come.

Now we are getting somewhere. The real reason for our involvement. I completely agree.

Except for one thing: I can't help but think it might be more productive to take the hundreds of billions we are pouring into Iraq and spend it on alternative energy technologies. We have the fossil fuels we need right here. Enough coal, shale oil and oil-sands to run our SUVs for the next 100 years. Scale-up of known enhanced oil/gas recovery and coal gasification/liquefaction technologies would make us independent of oil imports. And at $55-60 a barrel, these are already cost effective.

 

[exar]

I agree, and that's closer to my personal opinion. Unfortunately my opinion only counts for 1 vote so all i can give is my relatively educated predictions in my above posts.

 

[loggerhead]

By howdy! put money in their pockets and they will be good. uh hu?
Looks like we are going about it in a hell of a manner, blowing up the total infrastructure of the country. Then bragging about getting some of the electricity on (for a few hours a day) and calling it progress. Measure progress by the daily deaths and see how that comes out.
gWB and his "chicken hawk" company have not got the back bone to admit to a mistake and get the hell out.
We should be sucking up to south american countries oil and cut the middle east completely out of our picture. NO! gwb and company gotta try to bully them also.
Worst government we have had in modern history, maybe for all time. I just don;t think we can survie 3 more years of their fumbling and stumbling around the globe.

 

[marks655]

We should be sucking up to south american countries oil and cut the middle east completely out of our picture.

I think it's a little late for that. Heard Hugo Chavez lately ?

I agree, it would have been a better strategy than waging global religious war.

 

[invention_45]

Up until now, I always thought "quagmire" was a funny sounding word.

 

[model 25]

What you do if you pull out now is leave Iraq to the surrounding countries like Iran. Do you want to leave the middle east? Where do you get oil from?

What will happen is the country will go to civil war sooner or later with Iran backing one side. Unfortunately the Kurds in the north hate everyone else and won't fight to save Iraq but will keep their territory. Kurds are strong and tuff.

So the Sheites and Sunis will duke it out with the winner either joined by a nuecular Iran or having to deal with a nuke Iran. There is no winning in the Middle East. Peace will only come when they are all dead or we are.

25

 

[invention_45]

Just like you'd tell any caught criminal when they are howling "I'm sorry, I didn't mean to" while faced with the results of their misguided actions.

"You should have thought of that BEFORE you started the war".

 

[CobrayCommando]

Amazing, what strong willed Americans we have to back our president up. The insurgency can and will be eliminated if the next president can resist the floppy wills of the American people. What we need is a Phoenix Program. Too bad you guys don't have the stomach to see it instituted.

You have all been on the right and wrong train for too long, hop off and see the lovely shades of gray we have here in reality.

 

[exar]

The only reality I see over there is death.

 

[Leif]

There is now winning in the Middle East. Peace will only come when they are all dead or we are.

I really hope you don't believe that. There is no place for this kind of thinking in the civilized world.

 

[marks655]

What we need is a Phoenix Program.

Won't work. Unless you plan to target 20 million Sunnis and assassinate every last one.

 

[invention_45]

Leif, you said:

"I really hope you don't believe that. There is no place for this kind of thinking in the civilized world"

We don't live in the civilized world, we live in the real world. And in the real world, religion is always used as a rallying tool in the competition for scarce resources.

Indelicate handling of the middle east over the last 50 years has gradually painted the two main contenders, Chrisitianity and Islam, into pretty hard corners. Just look at the riots caused by a cartoon to see the intensity of what's going on.

Invading Iraq has caused the digging in of a lot of heels on both sides.

I don't see us moving away from the "all us dead or all them dead" choice real fast.

 

[Leif]

I'm a little surprised I even have to defend my statement, which apparently is somehow 'unrealistic.'

Simply because religious and cultural polarization exists and has been fostered by opportunistic extremists, primarily on one side but certainly not without some counterparts on the other, that situation does not ever justify the wholesale removal or annhiliation of an entire population, of which only a portion currently is in enmity against the United States and its allies. The suggestion of such a policy is sardonic at best and barbaric at worst. It only further entrenches the adversaries in this contest, making it worse, not better.

 

[Eghad]

From what I have read about the poll the troops said that we should withdraw from Iraq unless the administration puts some kind of timeline on the table with tangible goals. That the administration should beef up forces in Iraq to hunt down the terrorists. Right now we have an open ended committment to Iraq. Simply states, when the Iraqis take over thier own security. We keep hearing they will be ready beggining a year ago.

I beleive that Bush and Co are doing a disservice to the Iraqis and our servicemembers by not having a plan and a timetable. There should be a timetable telling the Iraqis this is when you take over this part of security, it will be 100% your responsibility. It gives the Iraqis a deadline and some motivation. Being closed mouth about the war in Iraq at the White House creates an air of incompetence when it comes to running the war in Iraq.

Mr. Bush needs to be frank with the American people and service members and establish a timeline with a plan. "Stay the Course" doesnt cut the mustard.

I disagree with the way the war was started but now that the bull has run loose in the china shop we own it. This is the war that Osama wanted. Russia was defeated in Afghanistan and sent back home. We are now the superpower in the crosshairs, so this is a war Osama and his followers must win also. If the terrorists win in Iraq, 9/11 will be a prelude to more terrible stuff.

 

[loggerhead]

original by model 25: Where do you get oil from?

It is my understanding that only 7% of our oil comes from the middle east. We could pick that up in south america and Alaska, if not for the bungled diplomacy of the gwb administration.