The scout rifle concept

[USMCGrunt]

OK, I read Coopers thoughts on it and a lot of posts here and other places as well but I still fail to see the purpose of it. The scope is low powered so it should be good for close range shots but sports a bipod for long range shots that really isn't it's forte. Iron sights IMHO are just as quick at close ranges as the scout scope so I really don't see an advantage here.
I guess all-in-all, I see the scout rifle concept as a rifle that is tool in search of a job. Am I missing something or does the scout rifle fill a legetimate role taht can't be better served by other more conventional designs? Comments, opinions, heck, anybody got any flames for me or anything?

 

[gunmart]

you need to go to the scout rifle arcive to totaly see what jeff has in mind but here are some of the main points.lite wheight under 7 lbs.the reason for the foward scope is it is easier to keep both eyes open .one for tracking and the other for alighnment of the cross hairs.also the fowards mounted scope negates anyone from getting bumped in the eye by the telescopic sight.i have both and prefer a conventional rifle but have to amit the scout rifles do point in better and quicker than a conventional rifle.last and not least the back up site could really come in handy in the feild if your scope breaks in the middle of the hunt.with the foward scope it also allows the use of stripper clips and makes topping off your magazine a breeze

 

[Al Thompson]

Lots of debate on this in the archives - a search would give you lots of reading (hint).

Bottom line is that until you use one, you cannot appreciate the total package. It is a very easy rifle to hit with and carry. The only drawback I know of is the low light inefficency of the scope. A buddy of mine has a 6x42 Leupold on his scout for deer hunting here in SC. (early morning and late afternoon)

I have added a lot of scout features to my rifles. All have Ching slings and when the $$ permits, several will have forward monted scopes.

Giz

 

[Gale McMillan]

USMCgrunt:
With all due respect to Col Cooper It is my honest opinion that the scout rifle is a pistol experts idea of what a rifle should be. It differs from what a rifle expert would think Your comment about the scope or irons Is spot on in my opinion .

 

[Erik]

Remember that the SS concept has to do with Cooper's (and other's) ideals for a field grade general purpose rifle. The reports of its practical accuracy from those who own them are impressive. Likewise the apparent ability to quickly pick and track targets. I like the concept, personally. But...Is it everything to everyone? Clearly not, and in reading Cooper's thoughts on the matter he repeatedly conceads that point.

Anyone who wants to lend me $2500? I promise I will thoroughly report my findings.

Erik

 

[Paul B.]

The SteyrScout. Now there is the most butt-ugly rifle I have ever seen. To quote the late Jack O'Connor, "Some rifles are so ugly that they would give an abortion to a lady crocodile."
BUT! Pick the darn thing up, and it has a feel like no other rifle I have ever held. The ergonomis are there. I really feels good.
Would I ever buy one, if I had the money? No.
Why? First off, I feel that a "general purpose" rifle must be totally reliable. This means controlled feed. So we need an action like the Mauser, or Springfield 03, Win. Mod. 70 pre-64 type, I think you get the idea. My choice would be a military Mauser 98 for starters. Too heavy you say? Not really. I have one sporter built on a Steyr 1912 Mauser that weighs 5 pounds, scope, sling, and full magazine, so it can be kept within the weight constraints.
As soon as I work out the rest of the concept as I see it, (mainly money to do it) We'll see if it can be done.
Paul B.

 

[AEM]

Where can I find the "Scout Archives" ?

 

[6forsure]

Use the search link above (should be underlined in blue). Type in "scout" and search in The Art of the Rifle (should already be in that forum if search was started from here).

 

[Rich Lucibella]

Regarding the scope, what are we using the .308 cartridge for in a "general purpose rifle"? On game it's probably not gonna be used much past 300 yards; on humans not much past 400. At these ranges the IER scope is as accurate as necessary and faster than the alternatives.

Now, if you wish to build or buy a 15 lb precision rifle, you can reach out further with the round and a higher power scope is certainly in order. But then again, you're not going to take a liesurely 20 mile hunting stroll with a 15 lb rifle. In any case, we beg the question, "Which is the specialty rifle?"

As concerns the bipod:
Cooper is a hunter. He hunts a great deal on the African plains and insists that his rifle never be out of reach. The bipod makes a *very* handy method for keeping it close and accessible when not hunting. (Everyone has to eat and sleep sooner or later.) I think Cooper would be the first to question the bipod's utility as a *practical* shooting rest, unless he had the luxury of a great deal of time. Last year in Africa, his party evidently found such time on about 1/3 of their shots.

In any case, the bipod costs nothing in weight or bulk, so why not? Personally, I wish more manufacturers would hop on the bandwagon. If one particularly experienced individual who graces this forum would get interested in integral bipods, I'm certain they'd become quicker, quieter and sturdier. What say you, Gale?

As concerns the drawbacks of the Scout, I'll defer my criticisms. Suffice it to say, I owned one; I sold it; I'm buying another.

Alternatives:
Cooper built many of the originals on the BRNO ZKK action. The flattop receiver lends itself to lots of magic: how about a rear steel sight that incorporates the stripper clip guide? (I can see Ed's ears perk up on that one)....Ashley Emerson will be trying this on my ZKK.

Winchester Model 70's are certainly available as are Remington 700's for those of that religion. The LURCR rifle built for me by Mad dog allows for quick change of scopes and will hit way out beyond my abilities.

But what about the Blaser R93....think about it! Custom machine a scope mount for the Leupold forward mount and you are done!
Rich

 

[6forsure]

Why not Model 7 with a regular low power scope?

 

[MAD DOG]

I am not real big on the Steyr Scout (cheesy plastic bipod, pushfeed alloy receiver, pencil barrel, etc, ad nauseum), but as *originally* conceived by Cooper (controlled feed, lightweight, TOUGH/reliable, accurate) the idea has merit in both theory and practice, as has been amply demonstrated here in Arizona and elsewhere.
The (properly built) Scout rifles are fast, easy to shoot, lightweight, and they hit/kill things.
Certainly not a "precision rifle" or sniper weapon, but a great "utility" piece for the sharpshooter in the field.
Sorry that I qualified so many of those statements, but if you had seen as many "Scoutazoid" pieces that were nothing but fencepost quality junk cobbled together by dyslexic retarded gunplumbers as I have, well...

Gale's "pistol expert" comment above had me rolling on the floor. In all fairness to Gale McMillan and Jeff Cooper both, we must allow that a rifle need not weigh in above 10 pounds and have a strong telescopic sight to be useful; nor must it be excessively fragile, overpriced and ammunition sensitive.

A place for all rifles, and every rifle in it's place, or something to that effect.

I still prefer conventional mounts for the conventional scopes, but I like forward (Scout type) mounting for Aimpoints.

 

[gunmart]

ohhhhhhhhhh yeah my ears did pick up.i would like to have the flip up rear sight and i am working on something now.ill let you know what i come up with.i am thinking of using and dove tailing the rear sight that ruger is using on its ranch rifle.what do you think rich?

 

[Rich Lucibella]

Ed-
As you know, I only recently got seriously interested in long guns. From my limited experience, I'm partial to the ghost ring, though the express sights on the LURCR are real quick too. I thought the Ranch rifle used a peep sight?

Fact is, Ashley's forgotten more about sighting and quick acquisition than I could learn in the next 3 lifetimes. I'll leave this up to him.

 

[gunmart]

rich the ruger sight can be opened up to become a ghost ring.is ashley going to be able to do a flip up conversion?

 

[Strabs]

The concept of having a LIGHT(er), SHORT(er), DURABLE(er) rifle, that has the capability of using either a scope(power is relative to what you expect to shoot, I presume) or irons, while being simple (not to many moving parts (autos or L-actions), is what intrigues me most about the "scout" concept. Every gun has it's place (and range), and aside from semi-autos and lever actions scout style rifles seem pretty darn versitile.

 

[gunmart]

scopes do not make you hit better they just make you see better>

 

[Destructo6]

The original reason for the forward mounted scope was to allow the use of stripper clips to charge the magazine. Since they Steyr version uses a detachable box, the reason has been largely nullified.

 

[George Hill]

One thing I really like about the Scout rifle by Steyer - is the detachable box magazine and the spare waiting in the stock.
The Bipod is a good idea - bit I dont care for the flimsyness of the SS's version.
Those 2 design elements are important. Yet they have nothing to do with Cooper's concept. Gale could (PLEASE OH PLEASE!)probably design a good replacement stock for regular rifle actions that has these two features built in. I think the forward mounted scope is a good thing... its fast and not a bad option for a medium range rifle. When you dont know what your going to be facing - I wouldnt pick any other arrangement. If your too concerned over the fact your not getting enough scope - maybe you need to stalk a little closer?

I was all set to buy a Steyer Scout - had one ordered actually but cancelled it. 2500 is a lot of scratch for a go anywhere and do anything in north america type rifle... I decided I'ld rather take the time and build my own rifle.

 

[Dave Finfrock]

The reason for the forward mounted scope was to give the shooter a wider field of view to pick up and track targets. It also keeps the ocular bell out of your forehead. Cooper states the stripper guides on pseudo-scouts were nice, but hardly part of the basic scout concept.

 

[Kent White]

My 2 cents...I've owned my Scout for about 5 years now. It's based on a Ruger Ultralight (old enough to have the tang safety!)...fitted with pedestal bases w/ Talley QD rings at Gunsite...I was lucky and found a B&C stock at a local sporting goods store at close out price of $30. The only feature it lacks is a "ghost ring" rear sight, but that's because of me being slack.

Best rifle I've ever owned, period. I hit anything I can see with it, and that's enough. If you can't see it, you have no business shooting at it. (Remember Rule #4-Be sure of your target?)

Worst thing is that it really makes it difficult to justify buying a new rifle.

I'm working (off and on) on a "Utility Scout" based on a Enfield MkIII. With the barrel trimmed back to 20", the balance is perfect, but I fear it won't make Scout weight.