The "Right" recoil spring

[L. Boscoe]

I have always had problems with stock 45's ejecting my lower power loads, and the remedy was a lighter recoil spring. Cajun Gun Works has a post saying the way to tell is when you get about a
6ft ejection of brass. If your spring is too heavy, no ejection, if too
light, brass in the next zip code.
I spoke with Les Baer today, and he cautioned me to not go below
16# in his Premier II pistol, and to raise my powder load to accommodate by about 0.4 gr from my current 4.6gr. I will shoot
the pistol tomorrow, but I did not get a chance to ask him why not
below 16#.
Frame battering I can understand from a very weak spring, but
what else is the danger?

 

[reynolds357]

I have always had problems with stock 45's ejecting my lower power loads, and the remedy was a lighter recoil spring. Cajun Gun Works has a post saying the way to tell is when you get about a
6ft ejection of brass. If your spring is too heavy, no ejection, if too
light, brass in the next zip code.
I spoke with Les Baer today, and he cautioned me to not go below
16# in his Premier II pistol, and to raise my powder load to accommodate by about 0.4 gr from my current 4.6gr. I will shoot
the pistol tomorrow, but I did not get a chance to ask him why not
below 16#.
Frame battering I can understand from a very weak spring, but
what else is the danger?

I don't think it's a danger, but a reliability issue. Certain mass slides work best at certain spring weights.

 

[Rinspeed]

It's no wonder you are confused, most people don't really know how pistols work and there is a lot of goofy opinions out there. Many think all you need to do is put in a stronger recoil spring to slow the rearward speed of the slide down.

Fact is the hammer and mainspring have more to do with slowing the slide down as it comes back than the recoil spring. If you don't believe me do a google search for 1911 animation. Much more damage can be done to a 1911 with too strong a recoil spring than too weak of one.

Also as you increase the forward speed of the slide you run a much greater risk of the mag springs not being able to keep up. The reverse is when you put in a lighter recoil spring you are slowing down the forward speed of the slide.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

I spoke with Les Baer today, and he cautioned me to not go below
16# in his Premier II pistol, and to raise my powder load to accommodate by about 0.4 gr from my current 4.6gr. I will shoot
the pistol tomorrow, but I did not get a chance to ask him why not
below 16#.
Frame battering I can understand from a very weak spring, but
what else is the danger?

Les has his own ideas about a few things that run contrary to what most of the rest of the 1911 universe thinks and does.

Colt ships their God Cup models wit two recoil springs, a 16-pounder for standard power ammunition and a 12-pounder for light target loads. There is no "danger" to running a recoil spring that's matched to the power factor of the ammunition.

If I had to guess why Les Baer doesn't recommend a light recoil spring, I would guess that it's because he fits the slide tightly enough to the frame that a light recoil spring may not have enough moxie to reliably chamber every round.

 

[L. Boscoe]

I ran about 150 rounds thru it today, and you can see the slide loosening up the more hardball you shoot. I tried my softer loads,
and it only failed to eject one or two of those, so I will shoot another 100 rounds of hardball and see if that fixes it, if not, I think a 16# might solve the issue or maybe a 14#. Glad to hear the damage issue is not on the table.

 

[Jim Watson]

4.6 grains of what? What bullet weight, what velocity?

Baer and Wilson that I know of furnish 18.5 lb recoil springs. Maybe to slam shut their tight slides.
Wolff says 16 but really wants to sell you a "calibration pack" so you can adjust ejection distance.
I have read that Colt recoil springs are 14 to 15 pounds.
A mechanical engineer broke down the mil-spec which is in terms of wire diameter, coil count, and free length, not load; it came out about 13 3/4 lbs.
USPSA racerunners use quite light springs in their Limited guns.

So you can find somebody to agree with anything you use; the design is very flexible.

 

[reynolds357]

It's no wonder you are confused, most people don't really know how pistols work and there is a lot of goofy opinions out there. Many think all you need to do is put in a stronger recoil spring to slow the rearward speed of the slide down.

Fact is the hammer and mainspring have more to do with slowing the slide down as it comes back than the recoil spring. If you don't believe me do a google search for 1911 animation. Much more damage can be done to a 1911 with too strong a recoil spring than too weak of one.

Also as you increase the forward speed of the slide you run a much greater risk of the mag springs not being able to keep up. The reverse is when you put in a lighter recoil spring you are slowing down the forward speed of the slide.

Too light a spring can do more damage than too heavy. When 10mm Delta Elites came out, I saw several destroyed by light springs.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Too light a spring can do more damage than too heavy. When 19mm Delta Elites came out, I saw several destroyed by light springs.

I think most 1911 'smiths would disagree with you on this point.

 

[mehavey]

Cutting to the chase:

- Shoot the strongest spring that still provides reliable ejection

Walk away.....

 

[44 AMP]

The principles are simple, the exact amount gets tricksy, AND dependent on what ammo you are shooting.

Too light a spring and you risk damage to the gun from increased slide velocity rearwards, and possibly failure going forwards from too little force.

Too heavy is the opposite, you risk failure from the slide "short stroking" and damage from the parts slamming forward, at speed.

And, if you don't think the excess stress can break a barrel or a slide stop that way, (in one direction, or batter the frame or the slide itself in the other, think again.

IF you know how to drive a standard, think of it like that, if you don't rev the engine enough when engaging the clutch, it stalls. If you over rev the engine, it puts extra strain on the parts, and if you keep doing that, something's gonna break.

Easiest thing to do is adjust your ammo for proper function with what the gun has in it. Change parts, reverify you're still in the proper operating zone.

Also be aware that YOUR gun might be a little different than their gun, and perhaps, their exact set up isn't perfect for your gun and loads. Ought to be, but you can never be sure until you test it.

Variations between examples of the same design happen, though they are usually small minor things. Variations between different designs can be much greater.

Had some light loads that wouldn't reliably eject from my Colt Govt model. Just to see, shot some from my Browning BDA .45 (Sig P220) stock springs both guns. What often wouldn't eject from the Colt worked in the BDA, no failures at all, though it did seem that the cases just kind of "rolled out" of the ejection port.

I could have messed with different springs for the Colt, but it was simpler (and cheaper) just to bump up the powder charge a little bit, which was all it took for reliable cycling in my gun.

 

[L. Boscoe]

Agree with the last two - find the right spring that provides decent
ejection and quit messing with it. My loads are going to stay the same; I spent the better part of a year getting them to a happy place, and I AM NOT changing that.
Looks like the Les Baer in question is happy with a 14#, which is what I have on hand, if the ejection is too far I will step up to 16#.

 

[reynolds357]

I think most 1911 'smiths would disagree with you on this point.

I don't think they would. Heavy enough to damage will in 99% of cases be too heavy to reliably function. In the late 90s, I ran a set up that was super sweet and the best of both worlds.
Super light spring with polymer rubber buffer. That was what I was still running when I switched to Glock and later CZ.
If you shoot a 1911 enough, you can feel if the spring is right.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

If you shoot a 1911 enough, you can feel if the spring is right.

I have been shooting 1911s for 55 years and I'm a certified 1911 armorer.

 

[reynolds357]

I have been shooting 1911s for 55 years and I'm a certified 1911 armorer.

Ok. I have built plenty myself. Will a spring heavy enough to cause physical damage to the pistol, in most cases, reliably function? If 1911 Armorer certification is anything like Glock, all it means is you know how to replace broken factory parts with new factory parts. Not saying you don't know your stuff, but from what I have seen, armorer certifications are worthless.

 

[tipoc]

From Aguila Blanca:

"If I had to guess why Les Baer doesn't recommend a light recoil spring, I would guess that it's because he fits the slide tightly enough to the frame that a light recoil spring may not have enough moxie to reliably chamber every round."

That's about right. In my experience that's why he uses a heavier spring.

tipoc