The need for speed - your hottest load?

[603Country]

CAUTION: The following thread includes loading data beyond or not covered by currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

I was just reading one of the threads (270 WSM bullets) and Brian/Peetza mentioned, as he often does, getting to 4000 fps with a light bullet. I think we all have that desire for fast bullets to some degree, and I could present a pretty good argument for it. But...what interests me more is what have you guys actually been able to do on top velocity handloads. I haven't actually tried to hit 4000 fps plus, but am tempted to give it a try with the new 34 and 35 gr 22 caliber bullets in my 220 Swift.

So...what's the fastest mv that you have actually loaded and clocked in a rifle of yours? I'm kinda guessing that Brian is going to win the speed challenge unless one of you fellows has some Godzilla case necked down to 22 caliber or less.

 

[NoSecondBest]

I don't think "we" have a need for speed. I believe most experienced shooters have a need for accuracy. I'd rather hit what I'm aiming at and could care less if someone else can miss the target faster than I can hit it.

 

[Brian Pfleuger]

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond or not covered by currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

.22-250, 35gr Nosler LF over Win748, 4,435fps, no published data, not max load according to QuickLoad, no pressure signs

.204Ruger, 32gr V-Max over Benchmark, 4,200fps. Over book max, using QuickLoad and Pressure Trace, some pressure signs

6mm Rem, 55gr Nosler, 4,065fps over IMR3031, slightly over book max, using QuickLoad and Pressure Trace, no pressure signs

85gr Barnes TTSX, .243 Win and .243AI, 3,550-3,650, using RL-17, no published data, no pressure signs

I believe most experienced shooters have a need for accuracy. I'd rather hit what I'm aiming at and could care less if someone else can miss the target faster than I can hit it.

All of the above loads shoot under 3/4" at 100, at worst. The .204 and .22-250 loads shoot 1/2 MOA at worst at 100 and about 3/4 MOA at 400.

 

[603Country]

I knew Brian had a hot load, and I was wondering if anyone was over 4500 fps. As for the speed versus accuracy issue, everybody talks about accuracy being foremost, and I think that's probably true in most all cases, and certainly in mine. But...if it was all and only about accuracy, we'd all be shooting 222's or 6 PPC's. And a lot of folks are shooting, for instance, 260's and 6.5 Creedmores, but I sure see a lot of forum chatter (mostly other forums) that suggests that guys love the round, but want more velocity - the 6.5-284 for instance.

I really like my 260, but I'd like to see 3000 fps with the 120 gr bullet, and I can't get there with the rifle I have. Maybe a 26 inch barrel would get me there, but I don't want a 26 inch barrel.

Anyway, this thread really is about bullet speed, and I would like to know if anyone is over 4500 fps yet.

 

[Brian Pfleuger]

In terms of going "Godzilla necked down to .22", you have to keep the case diameter/capacity relatively small or the pressure can't "get out". That's pretty much the definition of "over-bore".

4,500 isn't too tough. My .204 could get close with the right bullet and powder and it's only a 24" barrel. The .22-250 could do it with the bullet I'm using now. I've never gone to max load.

It'd be easy with the right gun. A .22-250 AI with a long barrel can reach 5,000fps. A couple of other can too.

Ever heard of the 22 eargesplitten loudenboomer?

 

[603Country]

Actually, the 22 Eargasplittin round was the one I was humorously thinking of, but didn't want to go get the Ackley book to see what the name was. I have been wondering if my 220 would get to 4500 or more with that new Nosler 35 gr leadfree bullet. Of course, that would require me to get off my lazy backside and get a chronometer - which I actually could use and do need to buy.

Do you really think 5000 fps is possible with what we have on the market today in cartridges and new bullets and powders? That mv just seems to be a bit out of reach. I think you've mentioned that 5000 fps was a goal of yours, but unless you have a 22-250 AI and that long barrel you mentioned, I just wonder if you can do it. Maybe a 22-6mm would do it.

 

[Brian Pfleuger]

It somewhat depends on your parameters.... the Remington Accelerators can do it pretty easily. They're a 30 caliber sabot fitted with a 22 caliber bullet.

They have published data at 5,300fps from a .300 Weatherby Magnum and that's with a 55gr bullet.

Your .220Swift could do 4,500 with the 35gr Nosler. If the .22-250 can do it, the .220 can get there too.

 

[chiefr]

Concur on the accelerators & saboted 22 bullets in 30-06 cases. You can really make some screamers without all the barrel wear if you really want to experiment.


I dropped out of the land speed record crowd many years ago.

The fastest wildcat, I ever heard of was when someone created a 22-378 Weatherby. This was back in the 70s. The wildcatter had to have some kind of special moly bullets made for the gun to function. All current mfg bullets would self destruct in the bore. When they developed a bullet that would work, FPS was 7300-7500FPS!! Barrel life was around 20 shots.

 

[Brian Pfleuger]

Actually, that cartridge is the .22 Eargensplitten Loudenboomer.

Rumored velocities have been up to 20,000 fps, which is ridiculous.

Follow the link I posted above for a bit more info.

I've never seen a verified speed for it over 4,600fps.

Making that huge case down to .22 caliber runs into massive problem. You simply can't get the gases out that tiny hole fast enough.

I designed a .17-50BMG in QuickLoad. It predicted max speeds barely over 4,000.

 

[MEATSAW]

Isn't the maximum theoretical velocity the rate of expansion of the gas produced by combustion of the powder? The bullet can't go faster than the gas pushing it. I have a hard time believing it would be over than 6000 fps.

 

[Brian Pfleuger]

I believe the theoretical maximum is something like 11,000 for the gases. For an actual bullet in a "normal" gun, I think I've seen 7,300 mentioned. A number of folks have posted chrony photos at 5,200 and over.

 

[Kimber84]

I've got my .204 running around 4100, with a 32 g v max... I'm sure I could push it a little harder, but its shooting 1/2 moa out of a Kimber Varmint.

I used to run my .243 close to 4000 with 55 g Noslers, but brass life was horrible and I ended that practice quick.

 

[Colorado Redneck]

204 Ruger with 24 gr NTX Hornady

Using 8208 XBR and Rem 7 1/2 with 0.3 gr. under book max and get over 4400 fps. Shoots half inch groups unless the wind is gusting (which seems to be all the friggin time this spring). Tears a prairie dog into small chunks.

 

[Sure Shot Mc Gee]

Hottest loading. Oh that has to be from my 25-06 using a 75 gr bullet. I won't post its loading recipe here. But its near a full case of 4350. Real close to that 3800 mark. A very accurate loading. But not one I would purposely use. As I'm quite sure it's one of those excessively overboard powder charges that erode's a barrels throating. And again, why wreak my nice Sig Sauer 202 Supreme with its use.

S/S

 

[dahermit]

...I could present a pretty good argument for it [ultra high-speed]...

Lets hear it. Especially the "good" part. I only can come up with negative aspects:
1. Safety, more likely to result in blown primers, separated case heads, fingers, eyes.
2. Not as accurate as milder loads.
3. Accelerates throat wear.
4. Destroys more meat, will not kill any "dead-er" than well placed shot.
5. Increased penitential for hearing damage while hunting.
6. Possible locking lug set-back.
7. Danger to innocent others in the vicinity.
8. Danger of being seen by others as some kind of reckless fool.
9. Providing a bad example for other hand loaders.
10. Ignores safety.
More, that others will think of.
Now, just what is the case you can make for loading hotter than the "do not exceed" levels?

 

[griz]

I'm not even in the running. Best I've done is about 4100 out of a 17 Rem. Ho-hum

 

[Brian Pfleuger]

Lets hear it. Especially the "good" part. I only can come up with negative aspects:
1. Safety, more likely to result in blown primers, separated case heads, fingers, eyes.
2. Not as accurate as milder loads.
3. Accelerates throat wear.
4. Destroys more meat, will not kill any "dead-er" than well placed shot.
5. Increased penitential for hearing damage while hunting.
6. Possible locking lug set-back.
7. Danger to innocent others in the vicinity.
8. Danger of being seen by others as some kind of reckless fool.
9. Providing a bad example for other hand loaders.
10. Ignores safety.
More, that others will think of.

1)Those aren't safety issues. Blown/pierced primers don't blow fingers off.

2)My fastest loads shoot no worse than 3/4 MOA and that's in deer rifles. The varmint rounds shoot aound 1/2 MOA. Speed does NOT mean inaccurate.

3)Throat wear is largely influenced by the "over-boreness" of a cartridge and by max pressure. Tell me, how is running my .204 at 63,000psi going to wear out the throat faster than running any other cartridge at 63,000psi? It doesn't know that SAAMI max is 58,000. Will it wear faster than it would have at 58? Yeah. So, it'll wear out somewhere around the time when my son (currently 7) is in his 60s, instead of when his son is in his 60s. Oh the horror.

4)Shooting animals in meaty places and using inappropriate bullets destroys meat. A 2,900fps Remington Core-lokt that blows apart on a 25 yard shot destroys more meat than a 3,600fps 85gr Barnes TTSX that does not blow apart.

5)You're really searching, aren't you? How much louder is a gun that shoots 4,400fps than it was at 4,300 or 4,200? Really? They're all loud enough to blow out your ears without protection and none of them are loud enough to with protection.

6)If you're setting back your locking lugs at 65,000 psi, there's something wrong with your gun.

7)If 65,000 psi is dangerous to others, there's something wrong with your gun.

8)A lot of folks that don't understand things think that others are ignorant for doing it. I couldn't care less. I know what I'm doing isn't dangerous. I've only got ONE load that I shoot that's over book max and it's over by 3%. Yeah, 3 whole percent. Plus, it's doing it in a chamber that has the same exact outer dimensions as a .243Win barrel, which has a case about 0.450 wide, but is only 0.361 wide and it uses small primer instead of large. If I'm in trouble at 63,000, the 243Win in an absolute grenade at 61,000.

9)Experimenting is not setting a bad example unless you're telling others to do it without the proper tools, help or knowledge. I don't see any one doing that.

10)I assume you just wanted to get to ten, since all the others are basically reasons why you think it's not safe.

Now, just what is the case you can make for loading hotter than the "do not exceed" levels?

First, I'd like to know why you assume that a high-speed load is over "Do Not Exceed" levels?

Second, just exactly whose "Do Not Exceed" are we supposed to consider to be the inviolable "The Word of God"? Load data varies from source to source. Almost like it's not an absolute. Almost like your gun is as different from the sources as theirs are from each other. Everyone should start at the lowest minimum load they can find from at least 3 OFFICIAL sources and should not exceed the highest max load of those sources, working up carefully and being aware of pressure signs. If they don't know how to do a load work up or look for pressure signs, a "max load" point isn't going to help. Their max load could easily be lower than the data.

Third, I'd like for you to find me some official max load data for my .243 Ackley, so I don't go over book max. Go ahead. Try.

 

[603Country]

When I said that "I could make an argument for it", I was actually meaning that I could make an argument for folks wanting more velocity. That was the 260 vs 6.5-284 point that I later made. I wasn't' saying that I would argue for max velocity in all cases. Still, Brian sure made his points well.

 

[dahermit]

...Brian sure made his points well...

No, what Brian did was to counter my points against going for unusually high velocity. As far as I can see, there were no points made for attempting to do it.
Aside from that, dealing with near maximum loads can be problematic. I have carefully worked up loads that did not indicate any excess pressure indicators, then without warning, flattened, blown primers. If one walks near the edge one is more likely to fall off...that is a certainty. Again, there is little to absolutely nothing to be gained by intentionally walking near the edge, so to speak. There are enough accidents and over-loads already.
As for loading information for the .243 Ackley, all you have to do is buy a 6MM Remington and use published data for that cartridge in the first place.
Again, just what is/are the advantages of extremely high velocity loads?

 

[Sarge]

Blown primers are a safety issue and I've got a dark spot on my right cheek to prove it. If I hadn't been wearing poly lenses that day, I'd need a parrot and cutlass instead of a 30-06.