The M-14 in Afghanistan

[40ozflatfoot]

Looking for something else, I came across this:


"USMC takes M-14 rifle upgrade to Afghanistan conflict"

"The rifle will enable designated marksmen to deliver accurate semi-automatic fire against multiple targets at greater ranges and with greater lethality than the M16A2."


http://www.janes.com/defence/naval_forces/news/jdu/jdu020219_1_n.shtml


Just goes to show...quality prevails over all.

 

[lonegunman]

I saw a report on TV that said the Marines were having to clean their M4's (or 16s, or whatever, you know what I mean) up to 6 times a day to keep the sand out of them so they would function.

I wonder how often the AKs the other side was using had to be cleaned? I doubt 6 times.

I also wonder how the M14 would compare on this point to the M4 or Ak. Opinions?

 

[ballistic gelatin]

Now that's what I call a rifle.

 

[buzz_knox]

One of the reasons the Israelis adopted the AK as a substitute standard was that it worked in desert conditions no matter what you did too it.

And just remember that the DMR M-14 (or M-25 as it's been called in its previous iterations) is not a battle rifle, but a sniper/support weapon. And, as I recall, it has a habit of having to be rebedded after a relatively short period of service or it loses its accuracy.

 

[Joe Demko]

We seem to be winning rather handily despite two predictions I saw blathered all over internet discussion boards including, I believe, this one:
1. The fierce Afghan warriors will get out their .303 Lee-Enfields and cut the American troops to pieces from outside the effective range of the M-16A2.
2. The fierce Afghan warriors will get out their ultra-reliable AK-47's and cut the American troops to pieces while they are disassembling and cleaning their M-16A2's.
Well, how many Americans have suffered .303 wounds? How many Americans have been found dead beside stripped M-16A2's?
The modified M-14/designated marksman program is several years old. It dates back at least to the second Clinton administration. It is not something new cobbled together specifically because of a perceived need in Afghanistan.

 

[Ewok_Guy]

I'd want an M-14 if I was over there.

 

[ankara36]

We all KNOW how our US troops are always doomed because they carry the fragile M-16 into battle. Colt should just sell each one with a body bag.


The AK works better in a desert environment because of sloppy tolerances. That's also why it can't group worth a ****. Their guys spray bullets while our guys hit them.

As far as the M-14, I thought only .50 cal Barretts were used for sniping? Its all those .50 cal assassinations here in the US that makes the VPC want to ban them. (sarcasm off)

 

[Teufelhunden]

You mean the M-21?

That's not surprising since (as has been mentioned) it's often used as a spotter's weapon. I think the Army also used it as their sniper rifle in Vietnam. The Marines primarily use the M40A1 now as an anti-personnel weapon, and the M82A1A(aka. SASR: Special Application Scoped Rifle) as their anti-vehicular weapon. Not that I'm saying that if a M82A1A crew saw a viable humanoid target they wouldn't engage, but officially it's an anti-materiel weapon.

Regardless, a sniper's spotter often carries either an M-16A2 or the M-21. They're not as accurate as the M40A1, but they are capable of higher rates of fire, giving the team a better ability to protect themselves if compromised.

As always, feel free to correct if I'm wrong

-Teuf

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

One of the reasons the Israelis adopted the AK as a substitute standard was that it worked in desert conditions no matter what you did too it.

However, the Israelis ditched the Galil with its AK-style internals and went to the M16 family as its main infantry arm. Doubtless they were influenced by Uncle Sam's gentle suggestions on where they should spend some of the generous military aid they receive from us; but I don't see the Israelis adopting the M-16 over an AK-action if there were any serious issues regarding reliability.

As for the DMR rifles in Afghanistan, there's a big thread on it (with pictures!) if you search the archives.

 

[ajaxinacan]

We aren't talking about snipers, folks. The rifles in question are part of a designated sharpshooter program that issues an M-14 to every 4th or 6th Marine in the rifle squad. The purpose is to return fire upon isolated sniper positions outside the range of the M-16A2.

Personally, after carrying the M-16A2 through the desert myself, I'd prefer it.

 

[Mad Man]

We seem to be winning rather handily despite two predictions I saw blathered all over internet discussion boards including, I believe, this one:
1. The fierce Afghan warriors

Isn't it funny that a lot of the left-wing ninnies who were worried about the "fierce Afghan warriors" are now complaining about the "inhumane" conditions these "fierce Afghan" prisoners are being subjected to?

 

[Libertarian]

Consider thst there were several hundred years of those same Afghanis holding off and killing every modern army to invade their country and you'll also have to give credence to the fear that we were going into another (Vietnam style) losing conflict.

Fortunately for our guys in the field, this time both the people and the government support the venture and we can use all of our might (technologic and dumb) to overwhelmingly blast all traces of opposition from out of range of retaliatory fire. The GIs there on the ground are primarily in a mopping-up and ground holding role. And to gather intel as it should be - by human assets.

 

[RikWriter]

lonegunman said:
I saw a report on TV that said the Marines were having to clean their M4's (or 16s, or whatever, you know what I mean) up to 6 times a day to keep the sand out of them so they would function.

I wonder how often the AKs the other side was using had to be cleaned? I doubt 6 times.

I also wonder how the M14 would compare on this point to the M4 or Ak. Opinions?


My opinion is, you misheard "ordered to clean their M4s" for "have to clean their M4s."
They are sitting around in the middle of nowhere with nothing to do...of course they have them clean their weapons over and over and over.
It's called "make-work."

 

[Mark D]

You clean your rifle when you wake-up. You clean your rifle between meals. You clean your rifle when you think about it, and you have the time to do it. You clean your rifle when you go back to your bunk. You clean your rifle before you go to sleep.

My personal observation is that the M-16 family is actually very good at keeping FOD out. Keep the dust cover closed, cap the muzzle, and keep a mag or, when required, a chunk of styrofoam in the mag well. Failure to keep ANY weapon clean, will result if operational failure. Doesn't anyone remember the AK's confiscated in Iraq??? The ones that were so fouled with sand that you couldn't operate the charging handle? The ones you couldn't get the cartridges out of the mags?

 

[Correia]

Fierce .303 range? Yes if it was rifleman vs. rifleman. But .303 vs. 25mm cannon. Or .303 vs. Apache attack helicopter. Or .303 vs. we spotted them 3000 yards out with IR and NV and now we are mortering them into oblivion.

I know we are all gun people, but in a battle like this we are not limited to just rifles. Our troops could all be armed with Sten guns and we would still be kicking the living hell out of the Taliban.

Kidao, their guys spraying bullets vs. our guys hitting them is more of a factor of marksmanship and skill with your particular weapon than the type of weapon used. In battle I'm pretty sure that there won't be a whole heck of a lot of practical accuracy difference between a 4 MOA gun and a 2 MOA gun.

 

[Frohickey]

Remember, the Afghans had our help with arms, ammunition and Stinger missiles against the Russians. Plus the Afghans really hated the Russians for invading.

This time around, there was no opposing world power to help arm the Taliban. They were alone against the whole world (at least, thats what we keep saying to ourselves even with the demonstrated grudging support from the arab nations, except Turkey).

I see North Korea as going either way. Either its alone against the 'world' or Red China is going to be helping them. Bet is on Red China staying out. They have enough on their plate with WTO membership and stolen US nuclear secrets courtesy of Clinton.

 

[glock glockler]

...with the demonstrated grudging support from the arab nations, except Turkey).

Not to be too much of a hair splitter here, but the Turks are not an Arabic people, they are Central Asian in origin and most of the ones I've met are not very fond of Arabs.

 

[Gewehr98]

Hey, ain't that the gun that gave Norm Chandler

a conniption fit when it was being developed? After he wrote his article about how bad an idea it was (I think it was Tactical Shooter) I was more determined than ever to keep my M-21 in a place of honor. He probably was more than a little miffed that he couldn't sell the military an M-16 variant, or a M-24/M-40/Rem 700 variant for the Designated Marksman Rifle role...

 

[ankara36]

To Correia;

In battle I'm pretty sure that there won't be a whole heck of a lot of practical accuracy difference between a 4 MOA gun and a 2 MOA gun.

On a good day, with a good shooter, the AK will be challenged to hit partially concealed targets at long 'battle range', typically out to 200 yards, and in Afghanistan, not uncommon ranges.

Then, take into account the quality of the guns (I saw a recent article showing a Pakistani gunsmith - and I use that term lightly - sitting on the dirt floor of his shop, putting the finishing touches on a receiver, I think, with a huge file), the quality of the ammo, and the fact that the guns get cleaned less often than their users do, and that 4 MOA seems pretty ambitious.

 

[Vladimir_Berkov]

Then, take into account the quality of the guns (I saw a recent article showing a Pakistani gunsmith - and I use that term lightly - sitting on the dirt floor of his shop, putting the finishing touches on a receiver, I think, with a huge file), the quality of the ammo, and the fact that the guns get cleaned less often than their users do, and that 4 MOA seems pretty ambitious.

Those guns are in the minority. Most of the AKs around that area are ex-Soviet weapons of pretty high quality.