What is the best aiming point to produce an OSS ? Please, no "aim for the head" answers ... I want my bullet to count, not to skim along between the skull and under the skin. Head-shots are highly over-rated. I have heard that an imaginary triangle formed by the throat and the two chest nipples is the ideal location for an OSS. But, my concern is ribs .... wouldn't the bone and cartilage from the ribs consume valuable velocity, thus lessening any chance for an OSS? Is it better to aim for the abdomen area, away from any ribs, to protect the hollowpoint opening and to retain velocity until the bullet enters the soft tissue, thus allowing a violent expansion to produce the quack needed for the OSS? Are there any hard-core OSS fans out there in FiringLine Wonderland ? Hello .... anyone out there that understands the mechanisms of OSS (a true rarity) ? G35 in Texas
The ideal OSS Aiming Point
- Thread starter G35
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I dont think there's any way you could make a blanket statement about placement. Every persons' body is different; torso height and width, fat content, male vs female anatomy, slight variations in organs,etc.. Besides the shot you're talking about would probably miss any vital organs and would only be a stomach wound.
G35, your right about the triangle for reliable OSS hits, but dont fixate on that triangle... just aim center of mass - then a little higher. Center Chest hits, or any hit above the heart will be devistating to you target. Head Shots are great, but with handguns, not as effective as with a rifle (POP GOES THE WEASLE). Your concern about hitting BONE is moot. Unless your shooting .380 or less. The bone does good things for wound dynamics, bone fragments add massive trauma to the wound, they make certain the bullet will open up or shatter (depending on your load). Some top loads such as made by MULLINS Ammunition (essentailly a bullet jacket filled with powdered tungston - very nasty) needs a bone strike for max performance. The Bone strike will not slow a bullet very much... and the infact you get better OSS results from disrupting the bodies structural support. In the early 90's I was struck with a .45 in the chest, while wearing level 3 body armour. The impact put me on the ground, and busted my sturnum. I had a chest rap and light duty for 5 weeks after spending 3 days in a VA hospital. Effecting Bone is ideal.
Head -- triangle made by eyes and nose. Anything else may not be an OSS. The heart is located under the sternum, and a shot to the sternum will likely send the bullet/bone fragments into the heart. This MAY produce a OSS. Marshall/Sanow describe OSS on page 43 of HSP which I am sure you have. In training, we teach officers to shoot until subject falls down or ceases to be a threat. I do not want officers I train firing one shot and waiting to see what is going to happen. If there is reason to shoot, you shoot until the threat is over.
BrokenArrow
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Achille's heel? Fafnir's belly? Grendel's arm? A friend's back?
GLV is correct - If a bad guy is worth shooting, hes worth shooting twice, or more. Shoot until the target stops the action that made you shoot him. However, in dynamic situations that officers get into - that shot between the eyes is very hard to come by - I would not even try for it unless I am already taking aim at subject who is standing nice and still for me. Getting that kinda shot is unlikely. More likely the situation will call for me shooting as fast as I can, while trying to get behind some cover and calling in a code 10-33 over the radio. Range fire and actual defensive shootings are two different worlds, no matter how hard us instructors try to make the training realistic.
I was looking at a "Grey's Anatomy" book this morning. Looking at the various structures of the knee and this thread came to mind. So I flipped a few pages over and looked at the CNS. The only place where a hit will flip the targets off switch is to aim at the Medulla Oblongota (however you spell it) the brain stem.
To hit it - if your target is in profile - is to aim just a tad behind and below the ear. If the targets facing you... draw an imaginary line between the bottom of the earlobes, then a verticle line at the nose.
Now understand this. There is a lot of bone there to penetrate, and it is a very small target. So, with a handgun... hitting this "Ideal" OSS Aiming point would be too difficult in a combat sit to be worth the attempt. Intead, your going to have to aim for a lesser ideal location, but one that is easier to hit while your jumping sideways out a window while firing you two automatics at the same time A'La'Woo style
And that would be upper center mass.
[This message has been edited by Kodiac (edited 11-02-98).]
[This message has been edited by Kodiac (edited 11-02-98).]
To hit it - if your target is in profile - is to aim just a tad behind and below the ear. If the targets facing you... draw an imaginary line between the bottom of the earlobes, then a verticle line at the nose.
Now understand this. There is a lot of bone there to penetrate, and it is a very small target. So, with a handgun... hitting this "Ideal" OSS Aiming point would be too difficult in a combat sit to be worth the attempt. Intead, your going to have to aim for a lesser ideal location, but one that is easier to hit while your jumping sideways out a window while firing you two automatics at the same time A'La'Woo style
And that would be upper center mass.
[This message has been edited by Kodiac (edited 11-02-98).]
[This message has been edited by Kodiac (edited 11-02-98).]
Walt Welch
New member
Well, I don't think any handgun will give you a One Shot Stop, certainly not consistantly.
I can tell you what my anatomy professor said in Medical School: aim for the angle of Lewis. For you non docs, that is about mid sternum; on a non obese person, exactly between the nipples in the midline.
There are lots of nice jucy things back there; lungs, pulmonary arteries and veins, the heart, the great vessels; even if you are off by several inches, you will probably inflict an ultimately fatal wound.
Just remember in the 1986 FBI shootout in Miami, one perp, Platt was hit with a fatal 9mm bullet. The first, and only fatal, wound he received. The bullet severed his right brachial artery, causing blood to spew all over the place, penetrated the chest wall, collapsed the lung and damaging several pulmonary vessels; he ended up with over a liter of blood in his chest (a LOT).
Sounds like a good result, right? Unfortunately, he was able to fight and kill several FBI agents over the next four minutes.
So, if you want to try for a One Shot Stop, you can try the area I suggested. I, however, would suggest you try, and try, and try again, until the person is no longer a threat.
BTW, for those of you who don't know me, I am a Diplomate of the American Board of Emergency Medicine, have had Advanced Trauma Life Support training, and 20 years' experience in the ER. Hope this helps.
Walter Welch MD
I can tell you what my anatomy professor said in Medical School: aim for the angle of Lewis. For you non docs, that is about mid sternum; on a non obese person, exactly between the nipples in the midline.
There are lots of nice jucy things back there; lungs, pulmonary arteries and veins, the heart, the great vessels; even if you are off by several inches, you will probably inflict an ultimately fatal wound.
Just remember in the 1986 FBI shootout in Miami, one perp, Platt was hit with a fatal 9mm bullet. The first, and only fatal, wound he received. The bullet severed his right brachial artery, causing blood to spew all over the place, penetrated the chest wall, collapsed the lung and damaging several pulmonary vessels; he ended up with over a liter of blood in his chest (a LOT).
Sounds like a good result, right? Unfortunately, he was able to fight and kill several FBI agents over the next four minutes.
So, if you want to try for a One Shot Stop, you can try the area I suggested. I, however, would suggest you try, and try, and try again, until the person is no longer a threat.
BTW, for those of you who don't know me, I am a Diplomate of the American Board of Emergency Medicine, have had Advanced Trauma Life Support training, and 20 years' experience in the ER. Hope this helps.
Walter Welch MD
Walt Welch
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Kodiac; forget about trying to hit the medulla oblongata. It is perhaps the size of a finger, and near where the skull and cervical vetebrae connect (it is inside the skull, of course).
Any shot to the cranium has the POTENTIAL to render a person instally unconscious. It may even kill him. If you are going to shoot someone in the head, shoot for the center; it is a lot less likely to be deflected, the more acute the angle is on impact of the bullet.
Remember that the other perp in the Miami 1986 shooting was rendered instantly unconscious by a shot which impacted near his nose, and ended up in his sinus cavity. This did not injure the brain permanently, however, as he woke in a few minutes and was shot to death by the FBI agents.
There was also an article in the paper recently about a guy who had a 16d nail shot from a nail gun into his skull from above. The head of the nail was about one inch under the skull! He was not rendered unconscious, and neurosurgeons removed the nail without complications; his only residual defect was a slight slowing of matematical calculations.
So, Kodiac, shoot 'em in the head, but just because they drop, don't assume they are out of the fight, and don't necessarily expect a good head shot to render a person unconcious or produce a lethal wound.
About your knee; RichL was just JOKING when he said you have to genuflect every time Marvin Fackler, MD, is mentioned. <g>
Stop genuflecting, take two Advil, and call me in the morning. Christmas morning. 2001. <g> Hope this helps, Walt Welch
Any shot to the cranium has the POTENTIAL to render a person instally unconscious. It may even kill him. If you are going to shoot someone in the head, shoot for the center; it is a lot less likely to be deflected, the more acute the angle is on impact of the bullet.
Remember that the other perp in the Miami 1986 shooting was rendered instantly unconscious by a shot which impacted near his nose, and ended up in his sinus cavity. This did not injure the brain permanently, however, as he woke in a few minutes and was shot to death by the FBI agents.
There was also an article in the paper recently about a guy who had a 16d nail shot from a nail gun into his skull from above. The head of the nail was about one inch under the skull! He was not rendered unconscious, and neurosurgeons removed the nail without complications; his only residual defect was a slight slowing of matematical calculations.
So, Kodiac, shoot 'em in the head, but just because they drop, don't assume they are out of the fight, and don't necessarily expect a good head shot to render a person unconcious or produce a lethal wound.
About your knee; RichL was just JOKING when he said you have to genuflect every time Marvin Fackler, MD, is mentioned. <g>
Stop genuflecting, take two Advil, and call me in the morning. Christmas morning. 2001. <g> Hope this helps, Walt Welch
Ah.. Advil huh?
Good I am swimming in it. Get as much as I want for free... we make the stuff! I made a good Igor for halloween and after... but that's life.
I dont think I would even try for a head shot unless 1. He was wearing a vest and 2. I was pretty close or had a long arm.
The pelvis would be an easier target if the guy was in a vest... I would think rounds impacting the hips would disrupt the bodies structural support and put the guy down... like a shot in the knee would. This would at least slow the BG down enough to make that needed head shot.
Good I am swimming in it. Get as much as I want for free... we make the stuff! I made a good Igor for halloween and after... but that's life.
I dont think I would even try for a head shot unless 1. He was wearing a vest and 2. I was pretty close or had a long arm.
The pelvis would be an easier target if the guy was in a vest... I would think rounds impacting the hips would disrupt the bodies structural support and put the guy down... like a shot in the knee would. This would at least slow the BG down enough to make that needed head shot.
I have had a question for some time and this thread really pertains. Lets say you have a hostage situation where the BG is holding his gun to the hostages head.
Would a hit on the brain stem result in the hostage being shot? I know if you managed to actually make the shot the BG's lights whould be turned out almost instantly but would he spasm and fire the gun?
Would a hit on the brain stem result in the hostage being shot? I know if you managed to actually make the shot the BG's lights whould be turned out almost instantly but would he spasm and fire the gun?
Walt Welch
New member
Would a person shot in the brainstem sieze, and discharge the pistol he is holding?
Well, first of all, the brainstem is darn hard to hit, and happens rarely. Let's use the cerebral hemispheres as the most likely thing to hit, due to size and location, as this part of the brain is just under the skull.
Most likely, the person would instantly lose all muscle tone , and drop to the ground, if struck with a large caliber bullet in the cerebral hemisphere. This is what happens when an animal is hit with a hammer or captive rod propelled by compressed gas. The blow is to the 'forehead' of the animal (frontal cerebral lobes)in slaughter houses.
There is a rare possibility that a generalized seizure could be precipitated by the shock of the bullet, but this is unlikely. Watch the tape of the shootout in Los Angeles where the BG's had body armor. A sniper's round to the head caused instant loss of all muscle tone, with no siezure activity.
Hope this helps, Walt Welch
Well, first of all, the brainstem is darn hard to hit, and happens rarely. Let's use the cerebral hemispheres as the most likely thing to hit, due to size and location, as this part of the brain is just under the skull.
Most likely, the person would instantly lose all muscle tone , and drop to the ground, if struck with a large caliber bullet in the cerebral hemisphere. This is what happens when an animal is hit with a hammer or captive rod propelled by compressed gas. The blow is to the 'forehead' of the animal (frontal cerebral lobes)in slaughter houses.
There is a rare possibility that a generalized seizure could be precipitated by the shock of the bullet, but this is unlikely. Watch the tape of the shootout in Los Angeles where the BG's had body armor. A sniper's round to the head caused instant loss of all muscle tone, with no siezure activity.
Hope this helps, Walt Welch
Terry - the video can be purchased from GunVideo, www.gunvideo.com, phone 1-800-942-8273. The title is "North Hollywood Shootout", catolog item #X0175, price $15.96. The video is listed as 30 minutes in length. You must supply your own popcorn although. Happy viewing 
G35 in Texas
G35 in Texas
Are we talking about:
a) instant death
b) instant total incapacitation
c) stopping all forward motion
cause Ive been reading a lot about the pelvic shot which supposedly will stop anyone in their tracks if the pelvic bones are shattered (big caliber) and it seems to me that may be the best OSS
IMHO
a) instant death
b) instant total incapacitation
c) stopping all forward motion
cause Ive been reading a lot about the pelvic shot which supposedly will stop anyone in their tracks if the pelvic bones are shattered (big caliber) and it seems to me that may be the best OSS
IMHO
I was thinking of a hostage situation where you are pretty certain the hostage will be killed anyway. I am concerned that if the shot is taken and one is put into the BG's brain pan, will he convulse and pull the trigger or simply drop.
If I understand Walt's reply they will drop but still it would worry me having to make the decision. Not being a police snipper I most likely will never face that dilemma but am still curious.
[This message has been edited by Drifter (edited 11-25-98).]
If I understand Walt's reply they will drop but still it would worry me having to make the decision. Not being a police snipper I most likely will never face that dilemma but am still curious.
[This message has been edited by Drifter (edited 11-25-98).]
Walt Welch
New member
wfh: a 'one shot stop' means exactly that: one shot stopping the person who is shot. Usually, however, the best way to do that is to kill that person.
The 'pelvic' shot has been discussed many times on different forums, and is a very BAD idea. There are no immediately fatal structures there, and people tend to bleed to death rather slowly (or so it seems if they are shooting at you).
As far as the hostage situation goes, I would certainly try to defuse the situation and get into negotiation with a professional negotiator. How can *you* ascertain that the hostage is almost certain to be killed?
I do know of one case, told to me by the training sargeant of the local Sheriff's Dept.
A rookie with spec ops training, who was, and is, a superb pistol shot, responded with the training sargeant to a suicide call. They found a man with a S&W K frame, hammer cocked, pointing it at his temple. The sargeant told the rookie; 'shoot the gun out of his hand.' The rookie takes careful aim and BLAM, shoots the gun out of the guy's hand. His bullet struck the slide plate, preventing the hammer of the K frame from going forward. There was an immediately shocked tableau for several seconds. The sargeant finally found his voice, and said, 'Bruce, I WAS ONLY KIDDING!!!'
Shooting a person holding a gun on himself or another person is a very dicey proposition. I would not recommend it.
Walt Welch
The 'pelvic' shot has been discussed many times on different forums, and is a very BAD idea. There are no immediately fatal structures there, and people tend to bleed to death rather slowly (or so it seems if they are shooting at you).
As far as the hostage situation goes, I would certainly try to defuse the situation and get into negotiation with a professional negotiator. How can *you* ascertain that the hostage is almost certain to be killed?
I do know of one case, told to me by the training sargeant of the local Sheriff's Dept.
A rookie with spec ops training, who was, and is, a superb pistol shot, responded with the training sargeant to a suicide call. They found a man with a S&W K frame, hammer cocked, pointing it at his temple. The sargeant told the rookie; 'shoot the gun out of his hand.' The rookie takes careful aim and BLAM, shoots the gun out of the guy's hand. His bullet struck the slide plate, preventing the hammer of the K frame from going forward. There was an immediately shocked tableau for several seconds. The sargeant finally found his voice, and said, 'Bruce, I WAS ONLY KIDDING!!!'
Shooting a person holding a gun on himself or another person is a very dicey proposition. I would not recommend it.
Walt Welch
Kodiac makes an excellent point: the pelvic girdle, which is the bone structure supporting the upper torso, makes for a good secondary target area should 2-4 well placed 2nd button high body mass hits fail to have an effect. That part of the body is large, is slower in movement than a agitatetd human head, and is relatively easily referenced provided the adversary is wearing pants with front pockets because the bone mass is located right behind them.
3-6 well placed hits to this area should cause the adversary to collapse into a more stable shooting position (bad news), but give him something else to think about and cease his mobility (good news) making him a distracted stationary adversary who, if they continue being a lethal threat can then be more easily addressed.
[Uh, no I don't consider the above info a LE opsec violation because short of armoring up fully, as the LA bank robbers did, or choosing not to wear pants with front pockets there's nothing anyone can do about this anatomical feature to make it less vulnerable.
Also a clarification regarding the North Hollywood, LA, shootout: the responsible who was killed on the sidewalk next to the parked big rig after his shoulder weapon suffered an incorrectible malfunction when struck by police bullets died of a self inflicted gunshot wound to the head. He was struck, however, a number of times in non vital areas with whole and fragments of police bullets.
The second responsible died from police fire after being struck multiple times in the lower extremities and torso with .223 fire.]
I know of only a single documented instance (1987) in the US of a hostage save where the responsible held a cocked revolver to the head of a victim and was in extreme close proximity to her. That was resolved with a single .300 Weatherby Magnum round fired from 78 yards into the right ear canal of the suspect by a LE long rifle operator. The responsible collapsed without spasm though the victim sufferred lacerations from bone fragment projectiles. She was traumatized sufficiently to seek legal representation and sued the involved agency but settled out of court.
I can safely say that making a precise shot into small static or moving objects the size of a human head in close proximity to a 'friendly' is a staple of LE long rifle training but it is not the preferred operational shot. That target engagement with a double tap is also an element of advanced training with handgun and shoulder weapon for entry team members but also is not the preferred engagement technique.
[This message has been edited by SKN (edited 11-26-98).]
3-6 well placed hits to this area should cause the adversary to collapse into a more stable shooting position (bad news), but give him something else to think about and cease his mobility (good news) making him a distracted stationary adversary who, if they continue being a lethal threat can then be more easily addressed.
[Uh, no I don't consider the above info a LE opsec violation because short of armoring up fully, as the LA bank robbers did, or choosing not to wear pants with front pockets there's nothing anyone can do about this anatomical feature to make it less vulnerable.
Also a clarification regarding the North Hollywood, LA, shootout: the responsible who was killed on the sidewalk next to the parked big rig after his shoulder weapon suffered an incorrectible malfunction when struck by police bullets died of a self inflicted gunshot wound to the head. He was struck, however, a number of times in non vital areas with whole and fragments of police bullets.
The second responsible died from police fire after being struck multiple times in the lower extremities and torso with .223 fire.]
I know of only a single documented instance (1987) in the US of a hostage save where the responsible held a cocked revolver to the head of a victim and was in extreme close proximity to her. That was resolved with a single .300 Weatherby Magnum round fired from 78 yards into the right ear canal of the suspect by a LE long rifle operator. The responsible collapsed without spasm though the victim sufferred lacerations from bone fragment projectiles. She was traumatized sufficiently to seek legal representation and sued the involved agency but settled out of court.
I can safely say that making a precise shot into small static or moving objects the size of a human head in close proximity to a 'friendly' is a staple of LE long rifle training but it is not the preferred operational shot. That target engagement with a double tap is also an element of advanced training with handgun and shoulder weapon for entry team members but also is not the preferred engagement technique.
[This message has been edited by SKN (edited 11-26-98).]
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