The ATF just paid a visit to my friend!

Mylhouse

New member
I'm so upset that I don't know where to start. I welcome any advice, thoughts, assistance, contact info, etc, that anyone cares to provide....

This morning, two BATF agents knocked on my good friend's door. One was a mid 30's black man and the other a younger white 'greenhorn'. They came wearing jeans and blue polo shirts. My friend answers the door and they start flashing badges and come with a very aggressive, assertive tone (black guy (BG)doing all the talking). When my friend asks what it is all about, BG tells him that a handgun linked to (his wife's name) was used in a crime.

Right from the start, my friend notices BG's 'disdain' for him in his tone of voice. My friend is thinking it is maybe because he has a shaved head (my friend is blond and looks like a skinhead with his head shaved, but he's not....hell, his wife is Asian!) They demand to speak to (his wife), at which point my friend offers to give them any information they need regarding the handgun. The gun in question was a USP9c that his wife formerly carried and didn't care for, so my friend sold it to an acquaintance. Apparently, the guy he sold it to sold it to some unsavory character down the line.

Before my friend (known as "F" from now on) realized which gun they were talking about, he said, "The Beretta?" (He had also sold a Cougar 9mm through the local classifieds) BG said, no, the USP....how many guns do you have anyway? F said that had nothing to do with the investigation, but he'd be more than happy to answer any questions they had about the USPc. They weren't interested in talking to him. They demanded to speak to the wife (W), who is 8 months pregnant. When F went into the bedroom to wake up W and let her know what was going on, the agents let themselves into the house.

When they both came out of the bedroom, BG demands to speak to W alone. F tells him that anything they have to say to W can be said in front of him. BG blurts out that F doesn't want to bring down the wrath of the ATF (uh-oh) and that if he wants to flock with them like that, they can return with a subpoena for a grand jury investigation. BG starts in again asking questions about how many guns they have, where do they go shooting, etc. F says he doesn't see how any of this is pertinent to the investigation at hand. BG threatens with a subpoena again, and at that point stands up, lifts up the side of his shirt, and drapes and tucks it in between his rig and his body, exposing a Sig in a Galco IWB holster.

My friend is thinking, "***?" BG says, "Do you really want your wife to stand in front of a judge and grand jury and go to jail for the murder of someone using her gun?"
F said, "I don't think a judge and 12 people are going to want to put my pregnant wife away for a crime she didn't commit. I already told you that I sold the gun. Don't you want to know more about the gun? I was the one that sold it, not my wife, anyway."

They went back and forth over this for a couple of minutes until W says she'll talk to the man and tells F it will be okay. F relents.

While BG talks to W, the greenhorn engages F in conversation in the other room. He plays good cop while BG plays bad cop...or so it seems. The greenhorn starts asking crazy questions like he is intentionally playing dumb, but with the air that he's an expert. Stuff like, "So does your G26 have the pinky extender? The G26 is a .44, right? Your Beretta Cougar is a .380." When corrected, he says stuff like, "No, the Beretta 96 is the 9mm and the 92 is the .380."

So, after 20 minutes it is over and they leave. F asks W what the hell they asked about. It turns out, W freaked and gave up ALL KINDS OF INFORMATION. She told them everything from how some of F's friends smoke pot (not me) to how her dad had been audited before. She even told them that her dad cheats on his taxes! They started grilling her about how her name and social security number came up as some shady arms dealer/manufacturer in Georgia. BUT NOT ONCE DID THEY ASK HER ABOUT THE USP OR WHO SHE SOLD IT TO.



I hope it isn't too hard to follow my story or the events that happened. You know how something always gets lost in the translation every time it is told. But I did the best I could hearing it straight from my friend's mouth this morning. My baby started crying 4 minutes ago, and I'm trying to type this as fast as I can before I have to go change and feed her. And I assure you it isn't BS.
If anyone has any ideas on what course of action my friend should take in the meanwhile, or what the ATF did wrong, or what my friend did wrong, etc, please share your ideas.

Thanks.
:(
 
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70-101

Moderator
Tell your friend to get a lawyer ASAP, He was already threatened by a govt, agency employee.
 
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Bad scene you described. Theats of Grand Jury. Subtle threat of showing gun merely to tuck in shirt when it was concealed. I would have told him, you can either ask the questions in my presence or in the presence of our attorney. Probably wants to nail her or you for being a "dealer" without a FFL. :mad:
 

Christopher II

New member
I've said it before. I'll say it again.

NEVER, NEVER TALK TO THE COPS!!!!

F's first and last words should have been something along the lines of, "I have nothing to say without my attorney present." He should not have let them enter his home, and he sure as hell should not have let his wife talk to them alone. That kind of high-pressure intimidation is how the BATF makes cases. Never talk to the cops. Ever.

Anyway, that's done with. Conside it advice for the future. For now, F and his wife need to consult with a lawyer muy pronto.

Edit - 4V50 Gary might be right. It sounds like F might be on the recieving end of an unlicensed dealer bust.

- Chris
 

Mylhouse

New member
Thanks for the replies

My friend is very tight on funds right now with the baby coming and his wife being off of work for the last two months. Do any of you know of any lawyers from RKBA or something that will at least hear his story and give him some free phone or email advice?

I'd help him but I just had my first child 3 months ago and I think I'm even harder up than him!

Gosh, I hope she didn't name off all of his shooting buddies !!!:(
 

slick slidestop

New member
I can't believe they talked to them at all without a lawyer present.
Also as soon as they "let themselves in" I would have asked them to leave, if they didn't I would have called the local police to make them leave.

And then she told them everything from pot to taxes????*** are they totally clueless or what????

As far as that goes, how do you even know they were really the ATF???

Major blunders committed here:(
 

easymoney

New member
Here in Kansas, that's nothing more than a private sale between two non-felon people- no FFL req'd. Is that not he law in your state?
 

Mylhouse

New member
BTW, I can't understand why they would want to try to bust him on an unlicensed dealer bust. I mean for crying out loud, he's only sold 3 or 4 guns in his whole life and he probably only owns 5 total!
 
ATF are anal. Back in the '80s, they were going after dealers on "straw man sales" and if they can bust a little guy for buying and selling guns on a regular basis, they're going to say (s)he was a dealer operating w/out a license. They probably know that they won't win, but if your funds are limited, then the victim can't afford a good attorney and will plea out or turn "snitch" for them. :mad:
 

Christopher II

New member
The BATF busts people. That's how they earn their living. The fact that your friend is a small-timer in the gun culture matters little. The fact that he likely did nothing illegal matters not at all. The BATF does not play fair, they do not obey their own rules, and they cannot be trusted. They lie and falsify evidence on a regular basis. I say this not to trash the BATF (too easy a target) but to convince your friend that he may be in serious trouble.

Your friend needs legal representation and he needs it quick. If possible, have him get in touch with the state-level NRA affiliate (don't bother with the national NRA, they won't care) for advice on where to find a pro-gun lawyer. The GOA or JPFO might be able to help in this matter, too.

He might have to shell out some bucks. I understand things are tight (I'm on the low end of the socioeconomic scale myself) but he really might be in a fight for his life. His freedom, anyway.

- Chris
 

70-101

Moderator
Unfortunately,

ATF agents get promotions for busting little guys on half truths and trumped up charges.The Bust, so to speak is more important to them than a fair outcome in the matter,and here in lies the danger of dealing with the ATF.
 

Waitone

New member
After getting to a second amendment attorney, F needs to get in contact with a variety of second amendment friendly publication and internet orgs. Nothing may come of it, but you never know.
 

Mylhouse

New member
Thanks to those trying to help.

OK, enough of the criticism. Round one is already over. Last time I checked, being dumb wasn't a crime.

My friend wasn't the complete moron, his wife was. She already feels awful and has been crying all day (half from getting yelled at and half from doing something so stupid).

They kept threatening him with the consequences of not cooperating. He was trying to cooperate without talking about anything but the USP. Maybe not cooperating then and there would end up making things worse? Maybe give them the impression he had something to hide and have them come back with a vengeance?

It is also easy for some of you to say you would have told the agents to pound sand. But, 1) they caught him by surprise, 2) he doesn't surf websites like this all the time to keep up on antigun tactics, 3) he had nothing to hide, and 4) having two agents tag team you when you are half asleep is probably pretty intimidating, especially when their badges have the initials that are covered in blood....BATF!
 

hammer4nc

Moderator
mylhouse,

One suggestion: try emailing a guy named Angel Shamaya, director/founder over at http://www.keepandbeararms.com

I don't know the man personally, but he is active in 2nd amendment legal issues, and he operates out of Arizona (Flagstaff, I think). He may even be a tfl member, I'm not sure but I seem to recall posts by him on this board in the past. He might be able to point you toward pro-rkba legal services.
 

bastiat

New member
'F' And 'W' Both need their heads examined. The moment they stepped into my house without my permission would be the moment I called 911 and told them I had an illegal intruder. Then the video cam would be rolling, too.
 

WYO

New member
I don't see any reason why they need to go run out and get a lawyer after the fact. Okay, so the wife probably said more than she needed to about extraneous things, but they are going to yawn at the pot smoking thing, and probably also about the hearsay about dad cheating on taxes. They were probably doing a trace on a gun they wanted to check on, and when they decide that your friend isn't involved in whatever they were investigating, it's over. If your friend gets a subpoena, then maybe they should consider the lawyer. But if the truth is that they sold it to X in a proper private sale, then the truth doesn't sound very incriminating to me. That's always the risk of a sale, moreso with a private sale.
 

Byron Quick

Staff In Memoriam
Good recommendation on the video camera. Hope they don't decide that your friend lives in a "compound."

Get a lawyer? Hell, I KEEP a lawyer. Personally, I'm not going to admit I'm breathing without a lawyer present. I have been on the periphery of two federal investigations. I have witnessed federal agents committing these acts: perjury which resulted in the conviction of two innocent persons, and intimidation through the threat of indictment to persuade a witness to testify. Just to sweeten the pot: the witness was told that the feds knew they couldn't get a conviction but the witness would be down about $50K when the trial was done. Also, the people they wanted her to testify against had been known to torture people. After the trial, they left her and her three young children with no protection of any kind. The trial did not hinge on her testimony. She was simply the only possible witness they had who was a "credible witness and a good citizen."

If a federal agent tells me that the sun rises in the east in the morning...I'll be outside with a watch and a compass.

Folks keep telling me that there are good and honorable federal agents. They're damn well hidden.
 
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