The Army's New Cartridge Will Be Epic...

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TXAZ

New member
Saw that article.
Kinda like the M-16 “revolutionizing“ warfare?
Maybe after several years of actual use.
This is a very new system. And as a systems engineer, I wouldn’t want to bet my life (or anyone else’s life) on it until we’ve seen at least 2 generations of hardware and SW that is at least revision 3.3.
Been there, done that. Be careful.
 
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Double Naught Spy

New member
TXAZ, I think you are being very optimistic! The only things that seem to exist for any of this are the concepts (design wishes?) and random bits of technology, none of which are in a format ready for integration into this design. All they are missing is the rifle, optics, firing system, cartridge, bullet, etc., but as stated in the article, they have a whole lot of "capabilities."

It is going to be really interesting to see just how many of these concepts actually survive into the final version. Already, it would seem that their initial ballistics have been scaled down. No doubt do they won't be the only compromises. I suspect the final version either won't be nearly as revolutionary as they are describing, or it will be so expensive and/or technical that it will not be commonplace.
 
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Bartholomew Roberts

Moderator
There are little bits and pieces of some of this out there: Trackingpoint, the MARS recoiless rifle, various reduced weight ammo schemes, maybe even stellite lined barrels?

The part I am not seeing is ammo load out. A reduced weight .270 Win Mag is still likely to be heavier than 5.56 and rate of fire and ammo load are going to be issues. Actual live fire training is no small thing either - who wants to go through any of the existing shoot houses in North America with a rifle that penetrates any body armor currently made at 600m?

There are bits and parts of this that have been demonstrated in controlled conditions. But there are key parts of the proposed technology that just don’t exist in the commercial market.
 
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COSteve

New member
Truth is, a grunt is going to use it, whatever it ends up being, and they will definitely find ways impossible to predict, to screw it up and break it.
 
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Fishbed77

New member
Looks to me like procurement officers drumming up hype to maintain job security and score future high-paying jobs at defense contractors.

Nothing more.
 
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davidsog

New member
The January notice, on the other hand, is the real "no-kidding agreement," as Caggins put it — and one of three companies selected by the Army will ultimately end up cinching the contract to actually produce the weapon in all its glory.
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With a goal of equipping its first unit with the platform by fiscal year 2022
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Bartholomew Roberts says:
But there are key parts of the proposed technology that just don’t exist in the commercial market.
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No the foundation or the technology does exist. Also, You guys seem to be thinking all the innovation comes in the "weapon" instead of the "weapon system".

Most of the technology the army is asking to be developed for future war comes in the form of a optics and accessories.

a specially-designed fire control system engineered to boost hit probability at extended ranges
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Optics

the Advanced Small Arms Ballistic System, an onboard processor hardened against cyberattacks that miniaturizes the positioning system and range finder typically used on Army artillery pieces
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Accessories...The Advanced Small Arms Ballistic System emphasizes system that includes the soldier, communications, optics, and accessories. It is not limited to a single rifle.

a sensor suite designed to accommodate for changes in pressure and density using multi-laser rangefinder system to estimate wind speed and adjust rifle positioning accordingly.
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Accessory

Truth is, a grunt is going to use it, whatever it ends up being, and they will definitely find ways impossible to predict, to screw it up and break it.
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Nothing every made by the hand of man can prevent an Infantry 2nd Lt from breaking it.
 
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Scorch

New member
Even if approved tomorrow, it will take a decade before the average infantryman sees anything other than the AR-15/M16/M4 platform. They don't have a weapon, they don't have an approved design, they don't have a manufacturer, they don't have a deployment plan. All fun, but we've seen this before.
 
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TX Nimrod

New member
If there was an Internet in 1892, the negative backlash over the adoption of the Krag repeating smokeless cartridge rifle might have delayed the introduction of the Krag. Think of all the new tech for a mainstream US military rifle....smokeless, small bore, repeater, bottlenecked, jacket bullets, bolt action....OMG the grunts will screw it up and everyone will die!

Somehow, we eventually give up what is familiar and progress to something new and better.

.
 
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Double Naught Spy

New member
No the foundation or the technology does exist. Also, You guys seem to be thinking all the innovation comes in the "weapon" instead of the "weapon system".
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Lots of technology exists. That isn't the issue. Actually getting the "weapon system" to actually work as a system from scratch (and this will be from scratch given that none of this is together yet) and actually having it work in the time frame given on the scale en, and given the success of previous such programs, and having it integrated as a basic grunt system is just truly unrealistic. Heck, it took them what, 20 months to bring the marpat design from design to debut and that was with all of the technology already in place.

LOL, as of right now, they don't even have the weapon on which the weapon system is supposed to be established.
 
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Bartholomew Roberts

Moderator
TX_Nimrod, considering the Army didn’t standardize on the .30-40 until 1894, and it was outclassed by 7x57mm Mauser by 1899, and replaced by the Army in 1903, I’m not sure that’s the example I would have gone with.

I’d also add the Lebel rifle was adopted by the French in 1887, so the Krag wasn’t breaking as much new ground as you suggest. The Krag was still evolutionary. The rifle being touted here, if it ever gets produced in any form, will be revolutionary.

It will change modern infantry tactics in a way not imagined since Rommel wrote “Infantry Attacks”
 
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davidsog

New member
If there was an Internet in 1892, the negative backlash over the adoption of the Krag repeating smokeless cartridge rifle might have delayed the introduction of the Krag. Think of all the new tech for a mainstream US military rifle....smokeless, small bore, repeater, bottlenecked, jacket bullets, bolt action....OMG the grunts will screw it up and everyone will die!

Somehow, we eventually give up what is familiar and progress to something new and better.
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LOL. TX Nimrod gets it! ;)

Assuming the TX is Texas....figures.
 
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davidsog

New member
It will change modern infantry tactics in a way not imagined since Rommel wrote “Infantry Attacks”
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But not as a rifle in isolation. That is the key difference.

The biggest change will be the caliber and possibly the cartridge design itself. The Army wants to use as much of the existing infrastructure as possible.

The leap in technology will come form accessories that can be mounted to the rifle and peripheral equipment used by the soldier.

Hypothetically....

I soldier could stick his rifle around a corner and send an image with targeting coordinates beamed directly to the MFD in the supporting A-10's as well as other soldiers in the unit all the while he is targeting exposed enemy soldiers thru his helmet HUD.

That image is automatically scanned cross referencing bio metric databases and using facial recognition identifies a possible HVT moving down the street...

That is the Advanced Small Arms Ballistic System. This technology has been around for a while and in use. The Army just wants to put it all together with a rifle caliber that is effective.
 
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davidsog

New member
Think of it like the SOPMOD kits only with newer/better optics. Soldiers can tailor their peripherals to needs of the mission and their role in it too.

While the M4 is the heart of the SOPMOD program, it is the peripherals that make the system.

For example, one soldier could have the biometrics database scanning images sent from other soldiers as well as his own.

Another could be optimized for communications, another for Command/Control, Fire Support, etc...
 
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WheelGunRealGun

New member
Other than the sight, an accessory, I don't see any specifics about what this rifle would even be. Deciding on a 6.8mm bore isn't much and is far from revolutionary. It's impossible to say that this new round will be "revolutionary" when it doesn't exist yet. Chances are it'd be caseless, and there's still many reliability problems to be worked out with caseless ammunition.

This all just seems like pie in the sky "gee wow" fluff with no actual substance. And considering the Army's track record of cancelling projects before they bear fruit, I'm not holding my breath on this one.

The whole article (perhaps save for the optic, which isn't a rifle) comes down to "just wait, you'll see. It'll be awesome."
 
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ed308

New member
Prediction: they will end up adopting the Six8 SPC and use SIG's Bluetooth connected optic system and that will be that.

Can you image the meltdown the Grendel Horde would experience? First the Valkyie then the Six8. It would be epic!
 
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davidsog

New member
Almost as epic as the 6.8 folks as when they thought the new round was going to be 6.8 spc, but hadn't read the article.
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Or the 5.56mm "wonder bullet" crowd who just can't seem to wrap their heads around what is happening.....

:rolleyes:
 
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