The Armchair Logistician

[Kaylee]

So here's a mindcandy game for y'all. Back in the ol' days of '76, I once read that many of the volunteers that were called up brought rifles -- obviously not exactly assembly line pieces -- that had all kinds of different bore sizes. When told of the horrifying logistics involved in trying to keep such a military equipped, the orders came down "oh, just give 'em all lead bars and have 'em cast their own bloody balls!"

So.. what if such a thing were to happen today? you know, say agricola, freespirit, and the rest of them Brits persuade Blair to come take us over again.
( kidding guys)

Anyhow -- there you are, having to look after your own local force of say 100 or so guys who volunteered.

You got (being generous on the military-patterns here):

10 guys with FALs of various descriptions
8 guys with M14/M1A clones
8 with M1's
15 with various AR makes
10 with various AK makes (all 7.62x39, for the sake of simplicity)
15 with SKS's
1 guy with an old Title II MG42
and the remaining thirty-something with various Remchester deer rifles... .30-06, .243, .30-30 -- a real mix.

Say there's about 40 pistols in there to, again in all sorts of chamberings...

So -- how in Gosh Darnit's name do you handle resupplying these guys after they've burned up their personal load?

-K

 

[Navy joe]

Constantly ride their #$% to conserve ammo, I'd expect that by the time their personal load was gone we all (all that's left) would be sporting just one military pattern firearm, whatever said enemy so thoughtfully provided. Sounds rough, but in such a situation, if they're not for you, they're just a walking armory that with any luck delivers itself to you. Although I can do it, the whole casting your own, making primers from match head routine seems a mite bit impractical. Unless of course you are constructing a one shot wonder with the express intent of obtaining a more suitable arm. See above.

 

[Vladimir_Berkov]

First, tell the guys that their personal sidearms are not going to get resupplied with ammo, ever, except for those pistols used for guard duty, etc. That rules out a lot of it.

We have 18 guys using weapons in 7.62x51
25 with weapons in 7.62x39
15 with weapons in 5.56x45

Try to supply these three groups above all the rest. They are the majority of the force, and their ammo is also much easier to find both from dead baddies and the local area. Depending on the number of deer rifles in 30-06, you might add that conditionally as well. The MG42 is useful, but ammo supply is a problem. But since it is pretty much the only weapon in 8mm, any 8mm you find goes directly to it.

THEN, I would gather up all the ordinance and redistribute it. Give the MBR's in .308, the AKs, and the ARs to the guys with military experience, who are young enough and fit enough to be the best soldiers. The guys which are too young, too old, too fat, too sick, etc, get all the oddball caliber and obsolete weapons. That way you have the best fighters with the weapons with the most ammo, spare parts, mags, etc. The guys who are not the best fighters can then be used as observers, perimeter defense, prisoner guards, and for communication, weapon maintainance, first aid, etc. They will not need the same amount of ammo as the front line guys, so it doesn't matter if they only have 40 rounds of ammo for that .22-250 or .45-70.

 

[Crimper-D]

Figure out who your "agressor" is and...

Adopt His Ammo as Your Own! The Finns did this, using stores of Russian arms from stockpiles left in their country when they won their independence from Russia in 1917. They used Russian weapons and ammunition as the basis for their arms production. It was a decision that paid off when the Soviets decided to invade in 1940. The Finnish resupply/ logistics problem was greatly simplified by being able to resupply their field troops with ammunition and weapons taken from the massive numbers of Russian casuelties they inflicted.

 

[Torquemada]

THEN, I would gather up all the ordinance and redistribute it. Give the MBR's in .308, the AKs, and the ARs to the guys with military experience, who are young enough and fit enough to be the best soldiers. The guys which are too young, too old, too fat, too sick, etc, get all the oddball caliber and obsolete weapons. That way you have the best fighters with the weapons with the most ammo, spare parts, mags, etc. The guys who are not the best fighters can then be used as observers, perimeter defense, prisoner guards, and for communication, weapon maintainance, first aid, etc.

SHTF, I link up with the nearest group, and am told to "turn over my stash" because while I had foresight, I physically am not a member of the "approved/best" group? Because some "eleet" clown didn't, for whatever reason, equip himself with useful arms? Someone else shows up with a wall-hanger circa 1654 and no ammo? A 10yr LEO but only has his duty sidearm? A 25yr Navy store clerk with an an air rifle? An unarmed athlete, unarmed he says "because civilians shouldn't own firearms?"

Molon Labe, indeed! I'm protected from the gungrabbers by, um, MORE gungrabbers.:barf:

"I think I'd do better by myself, thanks very much."

 

[USP45]

I think there are exactly two answers to this question:

1) You don't resupply with anything you cannot get. That is, the folks that are using M1's are going to be SOL when there simply isn't any 30/06 around. This is a simple rule that will assert its self. If some .30/06 is found, eat up - you don't know when your next meal is going to come.

2) You rearm early and often. If i were armed with a (insert battle rifle here), my first priority would be to obtain from the enemy anything that shoots whatever the enemy is shooting, plus lots of ammo, and stash it (or use it first.)

As far as personal arsenals... you're not going to survive by giving arms and ammo to those who cannot use them. But you're still dead even if your dead sitting on 5000 rounds of 7.62nato. Decisions would have to be made and enforced. You just gotta be picky on this. Folks without arms may be told, "You want a gun? Go get one from the enemy."

Don't forget, lack of ammo isn't the only problem in these scenarios. Are you going to be able to put 2000 rnds downrange with that rifle without cleaning it? Do you have a spare firing pin and can you field replace it? Got magazines?

Pick up "Boston's Rating the Combat Rifles". (Edit: rather read that section in Boston's Gun Bible.)

~USP

 

[gwalchmai]

"oh, just give 'em all lead bars and have 'em cast their own bloody balls!"

I thought they melted down little toy soldiers for bullets.

 

[labgrade]

There are vast stores of ammo "laying about" at local sporting goods stores, etc. - not to mention your local Guard armory (although I've heard the latter doesn't any longer?)

Too, your whiz-bang 1000 yard shooter's likely not to shoot POA any longer with "issue ammo." A re-sghting's in order, at least for anything to be used for anything coming close to expected precision.

 

[Vladimir_Berkov]

SHTF, I link up with the nearest group, and am told to "turn over my stash" because while I had foresight, I physically am not a member of the "approved/best" group? Because some "eleet" clown didn't, for whatever reason, equip himself with useful arms? Someone else shows up with a wall-hanger circa 1654 and no ammo? A 10yr LEO but only has his duty sidearm? A 25yr Navy store clerk with an an air rifle? An unarmed athlete, unarmed he says "because civilians shouldn't own firearms?"

Molon Labe, indeed! I'm protected from the gungrabbers by, um, MORE gungrabbers.

"I think I'd do better by myself, thanks very much."

We are talking about forming an effective combat unit here, not a bunch of guys sitting around saving their own ass. You might have a 50 year old guy who weighs 400 pounds who has a FAL, 3000 rounds of ammo, and 20 mags, and a Desert Storm combat vet who was unable to get his guns out of his house before the door was kicked down, etc. Do you really want the fat old guy to be in your squad? If the fat old guy handicaps the squad, more than just him will get killed.

If you want to save your own hide, you might as well do it alone. But if you are trying to actually participate in some sort of war, you might as well make the groups chances the best they can be.

 

[Torquemada]

As far as personal arsenals... you're not going to survive by giving arms and ammo to those who cannot use them. But you're still dead even if your dead sitting on 5000 rounds of 7.62nato. Decisions would have to be made and enforced. You just gotta be picky on this. Folks without arms may be told, "You want a gun? Go get one from the enemy."

Example: I show up with, say, 20 FN-FALs, 10k rounds and 4 family members. I know I can't use/carry all 20. I barter some, making sure that me/mine are taken care of first...

All I'm saying is my interests are taken care of first, because I was prepared. Excess (as defined by me) will be bartered to those with less foresight. Empty-handed and without any useful skills? Better grab a rock and go get your own from the enemy...

However, in reality I don't own ONE FAL, much less 20...but I'm not empty-handed either.

 

[Kaylee]

On the redistributing arms bit.. tricky. It makes logical sense, but I'd not be too keen to muck up morale by taking somebody's "baby." On the other hand some of those ol' heavy guys who can't run and jump with the 25 year olds can be downright SCARY half a mile away on a ridgeline with a bolt gun.

Perhaps split the dif, and ah... strongly encourage.. trades where it makes sense? And of course, I suppose some of the die-hards would be able to say "I left the FAL at home with wifey, brought the M1A, and have a couple ARS I'll give to those kids who just got out of ROTC in school..."

Regardless, it makes the argument rather well that (ick) ARs or AKs in 5.45 make more sense for the SHTF type folks to be buying up (depending on whether they're thinking Wolverines or Walter M Bowman) than FALs or M1As, yes?

-K

 

[USP45]

Regardless, it makes the argument rather well that (ick) ARs or AKs in 5.45 make more sense for the SHTF type folks to be buying up (depending on whether they're thinking Wolverines or Walter M Bowman) than FALs or M1As, yes?

Not necessarilly. The number 1 criterior for a SHTF weapon is reliability - IMHO that eliminates ARs (donning nomex in 5...4...3...) Number 2 would be accuracy/range - bye bye AKs.

I think the M1A (or M1Garand with a .308 barrel) wins. There is plenty of .308 out there. Magazines are not very hard to get and are very rugged. Field service is acceptable. Engaging targets at >300m is not a problem.

~USP

 

[labgrade]

"Anyhow -- there you are, having to look after your own local force of say 100 or so guys who volunteered."

THE original posit (whether or not logistics come into play - it will) is how to enable "the boyz" (nuetral gender) to play effectively.

Assuming they all bring their toys, it would be most difficult to seperate thos ethat can from those that talk about it - a tough choice. Without seeing anyone at "the range," I don't know how you'd pick a "sniper" from a "CQB" guy ....

(good thing it won't be televised ... )

I wouldn't discount that "400 lb guy who couldn't get out of his own way" that could smoke 'em to 1000 yards. Problem is = you don't know if he can ....

 

[Torquemada]

Another Point

OK, you've got 100 "boyz"....likely a mix:some with military or LEO backgrounds, some hunters, some target shooters, some mall ninjas.

1. Who you gonna fight? 100 volunteers against a standing army = massacre of volunteers. Unless someone has a boot camp in their backyard...organize big group into smaller groups for guerilla ops.

2. Dr. Megabucks, the Town Mayor, and Billy Bob don't repect each others' "authoritay". The doctor is rich and "respected" by his peers, maybe, and has high-bucks wallhangers. The Mayor is "respected" 'cause he's a politician . Billy Bob poaches grasshoppers at 1000 yards. None of them is a combat veteran, so odds are they'll take their respective balls and go home rather than play nice together. Better have a strong commander.

There is a valid reason that standing armies have little respect for militia. Unless properly organized, trained and utilized the particulars of weapons and ammo don't really matter.

 

[David Park]

So -- how in Gosh Darnit's name do you handle resupplying these guys after they've burned up their personal load?

The obvious place to start is to not let them burn up their personal load quickly. As mentioned, many volunteers may be reluctant to hand over their personal rifles for redistribution, so I think rationing of ammo will be a better option.

As Torquemada mentioned, guerrilla ops are preferable to going head-to-head with a major army. Even though the Revolutionary War saw use of some guerrilla tactics, warfare has changed since 1776. The book Total Resistance by Major H. Von Dach covers the complicated matter of logistics fairly well. In the introduction, Col. Wendell Fertig writes, "In my command in the Philippines, I found that the only way to break out of an ambush action was to provide indigenous personnel with limited ammunition. A guerrilla with an empty rifle will retreat readily, while one with an adequate supply of ammunition will stay too long and risk capture." Food for thought.

 

[lonegunman]

You will probably not need to resupply them, the enemy can do that for you.

Remember the movie Red Dawn? The Americans started off with a variety of hunting rifles, and shotguns, and ended up using AKs taken off dead commies.

 

[Gonzo_308]

don't count on finding ammo at the gun store fellas, remember if we;ve been occupied and we're fighitng for our very existance that ammos been confiscated. If the tables were turned you'd confiscate wouldn't you?

You're better off arming yourself with whatevers handy and making that work until you can resupply via dead opfor or allied forces. If we're in against someone else, Our military will support the unorganised militia.

As for me giving up my weapon(s) to someone in better shape? I don't think so. There are people suited to mobile attacks and there are those people capable of making a patrol. I'm not a young buck anymore and I can't run a mile either but i can find cover and make someones whole day a bad one if need be.

 

[ajaxinacan]

If we took ALL the existing ammo off ALL the shelves in ALL the gun stores in America tomorrow, it wouldn't go to first base in fighting a war. It takes thousands of rounds to train a rifle squad of experienced shooters to work together. Billy-bob's 2000 round "SHTF stash" won't mean spit.

Wars are fought with ammunition measured in acres. For those who have seen military ammo storage in wartime, you know what I mean. A truckload of 7.62x39 can be burned up in ten minutes of suppression fire, without hitting anything. And that's just to provide cover for an advance or retreat.

I'm with Torquemada on the militia issue. Untrained soldiers who don't even know each other and have never been schooled in the basics of light discipline, noise discipline, and military movement would be a liability until they could be effectively trained.

Send them all home and take your chances, or else take the lead and start drilling them relentlessly.

 

[Gonzo_308]

Ah, the second problem to be encountered. Discipline! what if don't like you being in charge and I feel my military experience makes me a better leader than you?

What if three, five or eight people all feel that very same way?

A democracy won't work in combat. What if someone refuses an order?

Even from a majority vote?

Can you let them leave?

They could compromise your position if they're captured and made to talk.

This is likely to happen since on some level we all think we're John Wayne or Annie Oakley. I might not be willing to die for someone elses bad idea. Especially if I think I'm more qualified to lead even if I am the new guy.

 

[trapshooter]

Here's my thoughts:

1. Ammo is good.

2. Learn how to 'roll your own'.

3. In the posit situation, choose your targets carefully. Like, pick the one's giving the orders, maybe? Hit small groups. Choose your ground. You know, standard G-tactics?

4. Thier supply train is 'your' supply train.

etc., etc.