TFL Members Support Rosie's Gun Control Effort!

Dennis

Staff Emeritus
(Oh, boy. Can Dennis spell "trepidation"? You bet! But here goes...)

If we believe in our Rights, should we support those beliefs?

Those who believe in the Right to Keep and Bear Arms (RKBA) frequently
become Gun Rights Activists. How *honestly* do we try to support our
movement?

Recently we had a great opportunity to win converts. Rosie O’Donnell made two
huge and very public gaffes. The first involved imprisoning gun owners and the
second was her over-exuberant attack on Tom Selleck

1. Surely even on the “feel good, be happy” Rosie bulletin board there are people
who own guns, or there are people whose loved ones own guns. It doesn’t take
much thought to realize that many of her fans would not agree with putting people
in prison for owning a perfectly legal, inanimate object that could save their lives
and the lives of their children.

2. Surely, *especially* on Rosie’s boards, there will be Rosie fans who like
(adore?) Tom Selleck. Surely some of them would *feel* Selleck was treated
improperly whether they voiced their opinions or not.

(By the way, Selleck apparently HAD been warned about the upcoming subject
matter. He COULD have prepared by readying an argument or by declaring the
subject off-limits. He did neither, choosing instead to play the “victim”. He is an
actor as well as a person - a person I admire. Whether he failed to prepare or
played a role doesn’t matter to me. I sent him kudos by e-mail and snail mail for
his stand long before it was requested by Rich.)

Let’s move on. When it comes to voicing opinions, we on TFL have rules.

(QUOTE)
There are only four rules for participation:
1) All Topics and Posts must be related to firearms, accesories or shooting.
2) Language that would be inappropriate in the polite company of strangers is
quite unwelcome here.
3) No trolling, flaming or other personal attacks, be they acrimonious or veiled in
humor. If you take issue with a Member's position, by all means speak your mind.
If you have a problem with a Member's religion, creed, national origin, sex,
politics, associations or personal hygiene, take it to email.
4) As we can never convey a philosophy through a few rules, we reserve the right,
in our sole discretion, to edit or delete posts and/or to revoke Membership. No
Second Chances; No Argument; No Trial; No Way. At best you will receive one
warning.
(UNQUOTE)

Some months ago these rules were adhered to a bit more strictly than currently but
TFL is not “my” bulletin board. I don’t own it. I am not an “enforcer”. In fact, I
have stated repeatedly that I am deeply grateful to Rich Lucibella for providing this
wonderful opportunity to learn; to exchange views; to develop unity, dedication,
and action for the RKBA movement; and for the fellowship of more than 1400
similarly-minded people from around the world. (I’ll omit the 200 or so lines of
amazement and compliments that I truly feel for TFL.)

Rich has expounded upon his reasons for founding TFL. As recently as April,
Rich stated (in this excerpt “...” indicates omitted text):

(QUOTE)
Seems that I had the misfortune of retiring at an early age and found much of my
time dedicated to reflection of events occurring in the USA. .... Frustration led me
to various RKBA related sites. Various RKBA sites led me to greater frustration
over the pettiness, lack of intelligence and general lack of professionalism therein.
In late September, I decided to put together a group to do it better. ... Our goal is
to be the premier firearms discussion site on the internet. A place where expert and
novice, LEOs, military and "civilians" can all come together to learn from each
other.
(UNQUOTE)

Back in November, the “powers” on TFL decided a forum for “LEOs only” would
tend to divide the RKBA movement rather than unify it. I voiced no opinion but
felt proud that you recognized Americans should stand together rather than be
divided into smaller, less effective groups.

Have we forgotten these rules and goals?

I ask you to read again Rich’s Rules Number Two and Three. Good rules. Rules
which ensure the free exchange of ideas without the extraneous, supercilious
distractions of personal attacks (open or implied).

On TFL, there are varying opinions concerning the details of the Right to Keep
and Bear Arms, but in the name of Unity, we try to “get along” with each other.

However, many entries on TFL proclaim those who do not agree with and support
our beliefs are somehow “less human”, their intellect less developed than those of
us who “understand”. Like it or not, this is similar to the liberals demonizing their
opponents but, when we do it, “we’re only telling the truth”, or “They are too
weak or stupid to comprehend.” It is similar to the Nazi tactic of demonizing the
Jews, unionists, and homosexuals, but “We’re only kidding” when we threaten to
kill our opponents. “WE” are good. “They” are bad. It’s all so simple. It’s black
and white.

You’re wrong.

When you demonize our opponents, and verbally destroy them like shooting fish in
a barrel, you may win the argument. You may win the “battle”. But are you
winning the war?

“A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still.”

Many of our opponents vote. (How else could Clinton be elected? TWICE!)

If we verbally destroy our opponents, even if we destroy them with logic, they will
increasingly hate both us and our movement. Frankly, most of us “couldn’t care
less” what they think of us - I surely don’t care on a personal level. However, if
we present ourselves in a verbally violent and insulting manner, we merely fulfill
the stereotype of the terrifying, redneck gun owner as depicted by Sarah Brady and
her ilk. We fulfill her “I told you so” description of us as reckless, irresponsible,
needlessly violent and requiring government intervention and control.

Destroying the opposition verbally may win the battle, but it is a Pyrrhic victory.
Such “wins” alienate rather than win converts. We solidify our opposition. In
effect, we become recruiters for Sarah Brady by increasing their numbers and
provoking (and supporting) their anti-RKBA stance and activities.

By this point, if anybody actually reads this post, many of you have found
weaknesses in my argument and flaws in my presentation. They are there. I am
not sufficiently accomplished as a writer to compose “bulletproof” presentations.
So, in the name of Liberty, let me ask a favor of you. Let me actually beg, if I
must do so.

Rather than pick my efforts apart, simply ask yourself one question before you
post your comments for thousands of people to read:

Does my entry serve to advance the Right to Keep and Bear Arms?

If your comment supports that worthy goal, make your entry. However, if your
entry tends to weaken, separate, or divide our RKBA movement, or tends to
alienate those whom one of us might be able to convert, please re-think both your
post and your reasons for writing it. Read again Rich’s rules for TFL - they are
good rules! They apply everywhere! Yes, even on Rosie’s touchy-feely bulletin
board. Those rules can support our efforts and weaken the opposition.

Although you may consider people like Rosie’s fans to be the opposition, there are
both members and “lurkers” there whom someone else might be able to convert to
our cause. If you think the task is too difficult or even impossible, leave it alone!
Don’t make the job more difficult for one of our colleagues. Don’t increase the
dedication of the opposition. Don’t drive the currently uncommitted into the
warm, fuzzy, welcoming arms of Sarah Brady.

If we believe in our Rights, let’s support those beliefs. Let’s stop fighting
counter-productive ad hominem arguments that gratify our egos but make our final
goals more difficult to achieve. Let’s remember the words of Rev. King, “Keep
your eyes on the prize!” Let’s work together, with restraint, maintaining the moral
high ground, and set our facile and petty personal gratifications aside. Let us strive
to win converts to OUR cause, to develop support for OUR cause, to provoke
action favorable to OUR cause, and to win OUR war - for it is yet a bloodless war
- for Liberty and Freedom.

With Respect,
Dennis

[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited May 26, 1999).]
 

DC

Moderator Emeritus
Dennis...

Are you specifically referring to posts on Rosie's board?
Honestly, I don't recall a trend of attacks here on TFL. If you have examples, we want you to bring them to our attention.

As for picking your post apart, why? It is intelligent, heartfelt and a good reminder.



------------------
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"
 

Dennis

Staff Emeritus
DC,
Thanks for your question. Upon reading my post (especially the “Some months
ago...” paragraph) I can see where a reader could infer a slur against the TFL
management. Such was not what I meant when I wrote that paragraph. I have a
gut feel that the “intensity” on TFL is written in stronger terms than in the past. I
welcome that if it reflects an increase in recognition of the threats to our Rights
and our increased unity, dedication, willingness to act, etc.

You are correct. The initial impetus was our performance on Rosie’s board. We
used terms and insults (real, veiled, implied, etc.) there that we would never use on
TFL. If we have our goals in mind, our behavior there was even more
inappropriate on Rosie’s board (with the touchy-feely people) than it would be on
TFL (where we are more prone to accept an attack, grin, and destroy the
attacker).

But, in the interest of full disclosure, I must admit it was a conversation in our
local grocery store that prompted my epistle. My wife went shopping so I hit the
magazine rack to read the newest gun rags. Two (rather large) fellas at the
magazine rack were discussing Rosie in loud and vulgar terms. They obviously
derived pleasure in frightening passers-by and driving others away from the
magazine rack. I considered them dolts and they perceived such by my
(unfortunately obvious) facial expression.

Sensing my disagreement, they berated me as a homosexual, Socialist, etc. which I
let slide. However, when they said I was a Clinton/Gore fan, I had to draw the
line. I approached them, smiled, and asked that they wait for me for five minutes
and walked away.

When I returned, one of them laughed and asked if I had gone to my car to get a
gun. I explained, “No, I went to my car to lock my concealed handgun in the
trunk.” Then I moved very close to them and motioned for a “huddle”. I quietly
explained in, er, “military” terms that their behavior, attitudes, ancestry, clothing,
and personal hygiene were substandard. (Let your mind run rampant - mine did!)
Yeah, I suppose there might have been a slight terrorist threat in there somewhere.
Perhaps several.

Having established my bona fides, I then explained we actually were on the same
side. I verbalized my request that they conduct themselves in a manner
appropriate to the social environment and to quit acting like a Sarah Brady
stereotype of a gun owner.

During our little conversation I requested their recognition of the problem they
created (they acknowledged their transgressions) and I volunteered to help them
overcome their impulsive nature. They decided they could manage without my
assistance.

Then I requested their cooperation and compliance - which they appeared to give
me. (It was sort of hard to tell with one guy. He developed a sudden stutter.)

I’m still angry over the incident and rather disappointed in my over-reactive
response. Then again, though I probably did not conduct myself with proper
aplomb, I doubt that they will suddenly vote anti-gun. And perhaps, in the future,
they will hesitate before inducing others to do so.

It was these two situations which compelled me to note that we sometimes are our
own worst enemy. I remember, “Cast the beam from thine own eye, physician.” I
promise I will try to conduct myself in a calmer manner in the future. There. It’s
said.

Jeez, DC. As I tell of the above encounter, my hands shake so hard with anger I can
hardly type. (I guess ya had to be there....) But trust me (I’m NOT from the
government!), I really didn’t mean to zing one of the most thorough and effective
proponents of RKBA in the free world. If I gotcha with a stray round, I apologize.

Dennis

PS. I gotta get a grip....
 
Dennis-
I recognize that people, even on TFL, are venting their frustration and rage. It's difficult for us, as Staff, to walk that fine line between maintenance and censorship. Our rules stipulate no flaming...that means polite discourse with others. We'd be hard pressed, however, to censure someone who calls Bill Clinton a "traitor" or Rosie a "Nazi".

However, you operationalize all the goals of The Firing Line in your simple statement <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>simply ask yourself one question before you post your comments for thousands of people to read:
Does my entry serve to advance the Right to Keep and Bear Arms?[/quote]

I've been really active on Rosie's Board for 3 days now. I, too, cringe at some of our supposed "allies", though I believe there are lots of juveniles and "plants" there. While mentioning that the other side has been *at least* as affronting is hardly an excuse, it is a fact. As for me, if there is anything out of line in my *dozens* of posts there, I'd sure like them pointed up to me...I'll be the first to apologize.

These are high emotion times and, for the most part, I'm impressed with the way our Members are handling themselves here. In stark contrats go to Tom Bower's board or some of the other sites. However, as you point out, we should each try to excell in our efforts to present our case in the best possible light.
Rich

[This message has been edited by Rich Lucibella (edited May 26, 1999).]
 

DC

Moderator Emeritus
Oh c'mon now Dennis, relax, and don't apologise ...(this will be addressed below).

You've seen my posts and as best this medium allows, you know me rather well. You are quite aware that if I perceived an attack or slur, there would be no mistaking my reactions. That said, I asked because none of us are perfect and if we (TFL staff) failed or there was a question/point of contention, etc.....we want to know (we need to know) your's and anyone's thoughts/perceptions. Further, I just wanted clarification as to whether there were specific incidences.

Yes, we are "more tolerant of intensity" these days....we've talked about it and the general feeling is that the current atitudes (public, political, etc) are a lot more intense and approaching overwhelming. Personally, I'm in a foul mood almost daily and believe every politician should be horse-whipped whether they deserve it or not just to beat some sense and a reality check into them. I believe that every single one of us is not as rationale and objective as we were a few months back. You, yourself apologised for absolutely no foul....hypersensitivity is epidemic. We have begun to doubt ourselves and our perceptions. Out of left field we get Kosovo, then Littleton, then Chinagate finally exposed, then instant gunlaws, then this insane censorship of normal kid goofing around, ad nauseum. My point, tempers are stretched, reference points are being obscured and folks need to vent a little and re-affirm to themselves that they aren't alone and isolated in their perceptions of this insanity.
So, relax, you are among family.

As to your incident, you are 100% correct in your perceptions and actions...those Neanderthals are as harmful to RKBA as the actual shootings, and they must be made cognizant of their bad behavior by any means that they can be made to understand. None of what is happening is any excuse to lose or drop acceptable civility and social behavior.

------------------
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"
 

Dennis

Staff Emeritus
Rich,
Okay, what do you want me to do? If each TFL member will parade through this thread requesting my sincere apologies for offending his/her gentle nature, or for being unable to PROVE beyond any doubt that he/she potty-mouthed on Rosie's board, I shall do so - with one exception.

Those TFL members whom I identified and already have contacted for their filthy e-mails to my houseguest know who they are. I consider the matter settled between us. As I believe we agreed, let's not bring it to TFL - I won't except in the most generic terms.

As befitting your position and, more importantly your stature, Rich is first.

Rich, I did not read all your *dozens* of posts. (For one thing, their board moves too darned fast for me to keep up!!!) Of those I read, in my opinion, you remained the gentleman I always have considered you to be. I do hope that my request that we consider the reactions of non-RKBA types to our comments did not offend, upset, or otherwise destroy the otherwise peaceful nature of the lives of you and all those who are such gentle persons.

Dennis

Dang. I can't seem to get this right. At a minimum, leave the "such" out of the last sentence. It sounds okay when I say it but sounds snotty when I read it. (sigh)
I should have paid better attention in 9th grade English (instead of getting thrown out so often). :)

[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited May 26, 1999).]
 

Byron Quick

Staff In Memoriam
Dennis,

You haven't offended me. I, personally, believe it is pertinent to let the pro-tyranny crowd know that there is a limit beyond which it is perilous to tread. But I strive to do so in a polite manner. I believe, as did Winston Churchill, that if you have to kill a man that it costs nothing to be polite to him.
 

John/az2

New member
Spartacus!

A hearty "Amen" to your remark/quote about politeness! I'm grinning from ear to ear after reading that!

Dennis,

Kudos to you, man! And a brotherly slap on the back for taking the fight into your ring at the store. Your comments to those two gentlemen were more than appropriate. Sometimes you've just got to speak their language to get the message through, and afterward show them a greater respect "lest they asteem you their enemy."

Sincerely,

------------------
John/az

"Just because something is popular, does not make it right."

www.countdown9199.com
 

Grayfox

New member
Dennis,
I completely agree with you and couldn't have said it better.
What we need to remember is that when we do engage an anti in discussion that we will most likley never change their view. However, Often others will be listening and by presenting our side in a civil, rational manner we do have a chance of bringing them to our side. Presentation is a large part of any difference of opinion.

"Common courtesy costs you nothing, however its return can be priceless."
 

Gunslinger

Moderator
Dennis let me begin by saying that this is meant in no way of a flame to you. I agree that there are those gun owners that perpetuate the "gun crazy redneck" image that adds fuel to the anti fire.

However I haven't seen that with *any* of this group (TFL members) on the Rosie board. I was the first TFL member to join there and begin a thread. At that time there were some here that didn't want to enter into any dicussion there to avoid giving their e-mail, etc. to that board. My post there was *very* carefuly thought out before being posted for the very reasons that you give. I too feel it absolutely essential that we present ourselves in a well educated, professional manner when discussing gun ownership with anti and/or those "in the middle of the road".

However we have had a positive affect there. The best example was our visit by Gunz N Roses here inquiring about firearm saftey with her children. On my thread one "undecided" Rosie member began supporting the second amendment *with* me. I also received several e-mails from Rosie members requesting information or simply offering their support privately.

Judging from your post it sounds as though you are venting here for the actions of those in the store and from private e-mails you have received. There are people "on our side" that do much greater harm to private gun ownership then good. But I simply do not see that with this group nor in any of their post on the Rosie board.

I am not asking for an apology. I do not feel that you've stated anything here that requires an apology. I just simply do not want members here to become hesitant to post on Rosie based on your post here.

Our (gun owners) greatest enemy is misinformation spread by the media, Hollywood and our elected officials. I have been mentaly writting a post for the Rosie site designed to inform non gun owners there of some of the common misconception that they may have regarding pending legislation regarding magazine capacity and *illegal* sales at gun shows. But, quite frankly, I'm too tired tonight to feel confident in the proper wording.

I personaly would hate to see TFL members stop posting there. Albeit small we are making a difference.

Gunslinger
 

Jeff Thomas

New member
Dennis, not only do you write quite well, but I admire your actions in the store. It took guts and intelligence to handle that situation. Good show!

Regarding "have contacted for their filthy e-mails to my houseguest", obviously I don't know what that's about, but it is unacceptable behavior. I'm very sorry to hear that you and your friend were abused.

Some of our "allies" are certainly some of our worst enemies. Not long ago in AZ we had some difficult debate re: some new pro-gun legislation. After some of our Rep's / Senators turned tail and ran, they and their staff actually received a few threatening phone calls. Stupid. UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES CAN GUN OWNERS AFFORD TO LET THEIR EMOTIONS GET THE BETTER OF THEM. Whether with the written or spoken word, not to mention a firearm. We are under a microscope right now. We've got to be firm, honest, strong, but polite. Lately I've even seen some folks using humor to sell a pro-RKBA argument by essentially poking fun at stupid gun myths and truisms. Good idea.

And, regarding the emotional level, it has definitely increased. In the current environment I am definitely much more strident in my views that previously. This is rapidly evolving into a philosophical war in which people are choosing up sides. I've chosen mine, and everyday I devote more resources to these battles. I am angry. I am astounded by the distortions, lies and subterfuge practiced by the anti-self defense crowd. And, I also know I've got to act mature and logical every moment so I can continue steering friends, family, co-workers and neighbors to a more logical approach to freedom. I cannot afford to allow my anger to bubble to the surface.

Dennis, thanks for your maturity and courage. You're part of the solution, and I'm sure all of us are glad you're on the team.
 
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