Texas Rebels II

[EnochGale]

Dennis - you have a heart - ignore the bile aimed at you. If a country can't help all of its citizens to have medical care - we stink.
Let's figure out a way to do it reasonably.

The initial point is one I agree with. Unless, the RKBA is moved away from an issue identified with old bitter cranks - as seen in the last discussion - kiss it good bye.

 

[Brett Bellmore]

"If a country can't help all of its citizens to have medical care - we stink."

Then we stink. The problem, quite simply put, is that there is no limit to the amount of money which can be spent on medical care. You could bankrupt the entire WORLD, attempting to give just the population of the US state of the art medical care.

Sort of like if the welfare programs insisted on giving out Kobe steak and Begula caviar, since some people could afford it, instead of hamburger helper and surplus cheese.


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Sic semper tyrannis!

 

[Monkeyleg]

Dennis, I can understand your frustration with health care, but I don't agree with your solutions. I've seen my share of lows (ever have nothing for dinner but a year-old can of sardines?), I've seen some high times, and I'm looking at low times again. MSA's seemed to me to be the best thing going, but some a***oles in Washington, who get the best care at our expense, said we couldn't have them.
My wife works at the county hospital, cleaning and tending to the rental plants. She's treated like dirt by many of the people who are coming in on the public dole to get care that I can't afford for myself.

If we want to reduce the cost of health care, let's go back to the days before MRI's, ultrasound and organ transplants. Medical technology has grown exponentially in the last couple of decades. What was once thought impossible is now routine. And it costs more.

Thirty years ago, only the well-off could afford a color TV. I was 32 before I could afford one (17 years later, it's still our TV). Today, even the welfare homes have color TV's. Is "need" relative? Do we base our idea of poverty on what the middle class can afford today, or do we base it on what the welfare class lived with ten years ago?

As for the Bush "recession," I'm sorry for your misfortune during that period. But it had no more to do with Bush than our current stock market has to do with Clinton. If you were paying attention in 1992, you would have noticed that the press announced the end of the recession within two weeks of Clinton's election.

Regarding Vietnam, I knew a lot of guys who were gung-ho to go in 1966. I can't think of anybody who wanted to volunteer in 1970, unless they pulled a lottery number under 43.
And then they volunteered with the hope they could be assigned to another part of the world.

Sorry, but every time Gore speaks, I hear another entitlement program coming, paid for by you and me. Social Security Plus? Another gimme program, this time for those with money. You put in $1000, the taxpayers pay you another $1000 for your account. A few thousand more pencil-pushers get jobs, and the Democrats have a whole new built-in constituency based on the fear of somebody taking away their goverment 401K's. Thanks, but no thanks. Just give me the money in my Social Security account so I can put it in a passbook savings account that earns four times the return that SS does today.

Here's hoping that Gore gets to go back to herding the cows, slopping the hogs, picking tobacco, and all the other back-breaking work he did while growing up in DC.

Dick
Want to send a message to Bush? Sign the petition at http://www.petitiononline.com/monk/petition.html and forward the link to every gun owner you know.

 

[Dennis Olson]

Look guys, I wasn't talking about organ transplants for little Timmy. I was talking about sick family members that needed to be seen, but were unable to afford medical insurance. Today, over 44 MILLION people in the U.S. are now without medical insurance, and that number grows every year.

What do you think the effect of having 100 million doing without would be on our economy? I see this as a "can't see the forest for the trees" issue with those of you who don't feel people have the right to be treated for illness. Are you so dogmatic that you REFUSE to examine this issue from more than YOUR perspective? I can assure you that *I* have indeed examined multiple facets of the problem.

That hardly makes me an expert or anything, but at least I have an OPEN MIND. Some of you on this board should aspire to that. I don't know what the final solution will be, or even IF there is one. I DO know that millions are dropped from health insurance every year, which places an ever-increasing burden on the medical services industry, as well as dropping those families ever-deeper into financial crisis. I advocate not cutting off one's nose to spite one's face.

These people DESERVE to be treated for illness, just as YOU deserve to be if you fall on hard times, as do your kids. But if you really want to be that rigid, maybe you could send your kids out to clean peoples' homes, for that extra money to buy health care. I'm sure the child labor laws would be set aside so that 8 year old Stephie can do peoples' dishes.

And as I said before, I wouldn't vote for that bastard Algore if it were a one man race. And I haven't voted Dem in congressional races in 15 years. So, don't think I'm some kind of bleeding heart. I am, however, a realist, and the reality is that what these 44+ million people are going through is WRONG.

[This message has been edited by Dennis Olson (edited August 07, 2000).]

 

[Ledbetter]

The solution lies in "reasonablizing" the costs of medical care, not in feeding the sick animal we have now.

For example, redefining liability laws could have a tremendous impact on the price of healthcare, making it affordable for millions more. So could changing the laws relating to researching, licensing and marketing medicines.

We should support healthcare instead of extortive drug prices and the malpractice lottery.

Ledbetter

 

[oberkommando]

Hell if you guys wanted free medical why didnt you say so before? Just move out here to kali and claim to be an illegal alien and your home free.

As to those with the hang up that OwlGore was "in NAM" Well so was Gray Davis and Hanoi Jane, but I certainly aint gonna give either of those two jack asses my vote.

Monkey, I think you have a very good point.

Also if you want to cast some blame I believe that most "NOT ALL" americans are to blame for their own health problems, they need to get off their asses and get some exercise and maybe just once lay off all that junk they consume. Also, every winter I hear of all kinds of people with colds running to their pharmancy to get "antibiotics" (yeah thats goonna help)for next to nothing, and what will that do? Just make strains of germs and viruses that could be treated with theses drugs more resistant, as many are becoming.

Well I have to hit the gym, as I have no medical insurance so I have to do as much as I can to keep myself healthy. I would workout even with health insurance and I certainly don't want anyone else paying for my healt costs out of their pockets.JMNSHO

 

[bookkie]

Dennis, the problem I have with it is someone has to pay for it. It comes out of taxes. Those taxes to often come from the family that can ill afford to pay them. It’s nice to be able to provide for everyone, but reality tells us that it can not be. See what happens is our friends in Congress only see the pain and suffering, so they feel bad and try to fix it. Just like you. The problem is that they only see the big pot of money from taxes that they have. They don’t see the pain and suffering that those taxes are causing.

They don’t get to see the family with 8 kids put out on the street because their house was repo'ed by the tax man. The collection of the money is to far removed from them to see the other side of the coin. And by god as long and as hard as I’ve worked over the years I do resent having to pay some loafer sitting on his dead A** while my family does without. If that makes me mean and cruel then so be it. But my family comes first. I pay over half of what I earn in taxes. I work 60-70 hours per week. I’ve worked hard to better myself. I came from a very poor family. I bout starved to death putting myself through college. I’ve had to earn everything that I have and that is not much. Although I’m finally starting to make a decent wage, it just seems the more I make the more the tax man takes.

Medical insurance for everyone? Yes it’s a nice idea, but you better think twice on who is going to pay for it. There are enough of us out here who are already sick and tired of paying for all the socialist programs. I do what I can to help others in need, after my family is taken care of. But I resent anyone telling me that I have to help others, especially the government.




------------------
Richard

The debate is not about guns,
but rather who has the ultimate power to rule,
the People or Government.
RKBA!

 

[EnochGale]

Where I work, the hardworking but lower level employees are not being able to afford to put their families on our plan. They cannot afford the co-pays on the perscription plan.
They put in the same hours I do but in crappier jobs.

This is wrong.

I had a part time job where they kept the folks just below the cut off for benefits.
Some of these folks were sad cases who couldn't really get better jobs. Society should help them.

Where is the compassion?

 

[Ed Brunner]

In the old days people died from a whole lot of things that doctors get rich treating today. THEN they die. Only difference is that they lived long enough for someone to benefit financially. Sort of donating your body to medical research.


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You have to be there when it's all over. Otherwise you can't say "I told you so."

Better days to be,

Ed

 

[MP Freeman]

I could afford better health care for my family if I didn't have to pay for others health care!!! And more ammo.

I'll take care of my family, because.....it's MY family. Nuclear and extended family.

Go to work. Millions are depending on you.

 

[Satanta]

Gee...I feel like crap.....see, I'm one of those people that needs help-not that I don't want to work...but all I manage is part time, minimum wage jobs...usually jobs that are bad for me personally...but I work hard and try.

Thing is...I'm legally blind. Due to diabetes. Can't see in the sunlight...can't see in the dark. My feet and legs swell up around 4pm if I sit or stand all day. Some nights my feet burn or go numb and I get leg cramps 5 nights out of the week.. My hands burn or tingle. I gotta shoot up twice a day and I got a crappy hearing aid. I have times where I just have to stop working because of nausia or low blood sugar. I still work and pay taxes-just like you.

BUT-looking at me you can't tell this. So often the 'disabled hiring laws' don't work for me because I'm not 'visibly' disabled...meaning..they won't take me with my disabilities if the general public won't know.

I can't get insurance...well, I can get brain cancer insurance. I have no benefits. I haven't been on the welfare rolls, choosing to be homeless rather than be a drain on YOUR bank accounts. I don't have kids or a wife.

I also don't get any freakin help.

That's ok tho...I know everyone here has it hard. I'll deal with my probs you deal with yours and we can all sing 'We are the World' and give the help to the Africans!

 

[Jeff Thomas]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>... old bitter cranks ...[/quote]
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Where is the compassion?[/quote]

Why do those proposing leftist solutions to societal problems always stoop to name-calling and demonization? Sounds just like the RKBA debate, no?

Just because some of us don't believe governmental solutions are the best course in health care, doesn't mean we're 'cranks' or lack 'compassion'.

You folks do realize you're arguing Hillary's debate, right?

Live and let live. Regards from AZ

 

[USP45]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dennis Olson:
Today, over 44 MILLION people in the U.S. are now without medical insurance, and that number grows every year.[/quote]

Does anyone know what the lowest number was of people without health insurance in the US. Or rather, what the lowest percentage was? Do you know when this was?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
What do you think the effect of having 100 million doing without would be on our economy?[/quote]

If this were to happen, we would be inside of one of two situations:

a) our capitalistic society has collapsed; and were're all screwed...

or

b) our population is over 400M, and ourdoor shooting is then illegal due to the lack of open space

~USP

 

[TexasVet]

Sorry, about the hypothetical little girl, Dennis, but if her life depends on money taken from my family at the point of a gun (taxes), then she's toast as far as I am concerned. Programs like you defend are why I can barely care for my wife now. If I had gotten to keep 90% of the money I made in the last ten years instead of maybe 48% then I could AFFORD to Buy a kidney for her.

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Tonkin Gulf Yacht Club
68-70

 

[oberkommando]

I am not one to want goverment medicine, however if all the money wasted by the government like excusing loans to third world countries like brazil and all the IMF monies were put to use here there could be a lot of treatment for people. I dont claim this would be enough and dont know how we would use this money (some way other than government control). I just think that citizens of this country should recieve first dibs on some of this money. If california can spend 400 million on goods and services for people that are not even citizens, then I think sick people should be able to recieve some aid, and if there is not enough money then I think that money spent on goods and services for illegals should stop and be put forth towards helping our own people first.

 

[corv]

Hi,all.Don't post that much on this forum.However, I have been following this thread and offer the following.I have to say that I agree 100% with Oberkommando's last post.To add my .02,let me say that no citizen in this country should be denied what
ever medical attention is needed.You may ask,how can this fool type this stuff.Let me say that I equate this problem to another one so prevalent in this country and that is hunger.There is no reason under the sun why anyone in this country should lack medical attention or go hungry.It is a fact that this country spends millions,if not billions,of dollars in foreign aid.To me,this money would be better used in caring for the elderly,the sick,the homeless,etc.in this country.I do not have the answer as to how this could be accomplished,but I do know that charity begins at home.Keep this money in this country where we will get a much better return on the investment.

 

[LoneStar]

Health care is far too important to trust the government with.

 

[EnochGale]

Each of us can read his or her post to God after we die.

I'm comfortable with my position. Some of you will be spend eternity being dipped in lava by a giant Janet Reno.

We spend billions on stupid defense items
and pork. Spend it on the sick and those unable to help themselves.

As far as name calling - I call them as I see them when people take philosophical positions that try to justify their lack of Christian
(or other value systems) charity.

Face up to what you are.

 

[TAZ]

Forced Charity is called extortion, which is what taxes are; forced charity. The fact that from 7 AM - 12noon every day of my life for the past ten years and for the next 30 years I spend working so that the people of Somalia can have food, the people of Mexico can be forgiven their loans, that Bill Klingon and Al Whore can be surrounded by luxuries undreamed of by the rest of us and protected my men with machine guns while screaming that I should not be able to defend my life, that a bunch of joggers can ahve yet another way to cross a river, that a lard a** can sit at home and watch a big screen TV has tapped my belief if the extortive practices of government.

Where is my compassion you ask; it ran out at 11:58 AM this morning.

There are a LOT of better ways to help those whithout insurance thansetting up some governement beurocracy that will either hinder medical care, make a mockery of it or both. Why not start with tort reform so that doctors could have a break in their insurance fees. How about taking the profit out of it for the hospital. Make hospitals non profit, maybe then it might not cost $1000/night in a private room or $250 for dorm style accomodations. If all else fails and we must brign in gov. Let the locals take care of it, that way, once everyone gets a good job we can stop paying the tax until it is actually needed again.

 

[yy]

I followed most of what Dennis posted. This debate on health care may benefit if Dennis made a few points clear on his position.

Dennis, are you proposing federal mandates to require unlimited healthcare for all US Citizens? (immigration problems, resource distribution problems, growth of federal bureaus)

Or are you saying that we should keep the current medicaid programs?

Or are you proposing that we must drastically add to the medicaid program so that all the healthy working people will pay for all the sick nonworking people? (You realize this makes not working and claiming to be sick very attractive)

Or are you saying that you want the world to feel their moral responsibility to the sick, the poor, and the hungry? (You do realize this is a voluntary thing. No law can make people feel moral responsibility)

CHARITY IS VOLUNTARY!!!

Dennis: have you volunteered to pay for another's bills? One does not qualify for demonizing if one has not taken a street bum into one's home, bathed the bum, fed the bum, and roomed the bum. or if one has not volunteered to pay a stranger's medical bills. Giving a mere 10% of your paycheck does not entitle you to the high horse. A billionaire's ten percent is a lot more than what most of us are worth. A street bum's ten percent doesn't do squat. Look at what your money does.

You mentioned several scenarios in your posts and I'd like to untangle them. You spoke of spending a week in a hospital can cost hundreds of thousands. Please specify what kind of illness puts a family member in a hospital for a week. Please specify what kind of illness will require a hospital rather than home nursing or a nursing home.

You mentioned a hypothetical little girl. What kind of illness did you assume she has? A cold that makes her feel miserable but has no cure anyways? A more serious pneumonia that needs medical attention BUT NOT NECESSARILY THE HOSPITAL? Or congenital defects that may require millions of dollars?

I agree that the low end of the health care SUCKS, having been exposed to it on the volunteer side. But all this talk about rights upsets me. Free market allows the coexistence of wonderful care and sucks-to-be-you care. Consider the alternative: Government price control leads to lack of supplies just like in rent control in New York. That translates to no care at all for some. Government controlled health care leads to sucks-to-be-you care FOR ALL. Neither really gets you what you want: just-in-time care at good-enough quality.

If you really wants to help start with yourself. Learn CPR, learn first aid, learn basic herbal skills, plant your own cold relief herbs. Then you help your neighbor do the same. Start the movement that way. Or if you're a physician, a physician's aid, a nurse, or a nursing aid, reach out and help your neighbors.

I personally know of three physicians, two pharmacists, one nurse, one certified care taker, and a dozen herbalists who treat or help patients for very little, and for free if necessary. THEY ARE THE ONES WHO PROVIDE THE KEY CHARITY, NOT MORE GOVERNMENT. My Zen temple has an education fund and a list of referals to low cost health care. People in that temple are the ones driving the charity.

An herbalist can easily recommend the herbs to relieve cold symptoms. (recall that there is no cure for the common cold, medicine only treats the symptoms) A nursing specialist knows what to do to help a pneumonia patient and can coach a low income family to cope. That hypothetical girl is scr@wed if she catches drug resistant pneumonia or TB.

I recall a post that reminded us the importance of exercise. It's true. Most of our illnesses are due to poor physical condition. Adult-onset diabetes, high cholesterol, high blood pressure, heart attack and stroke are all preventable with exercise and eating right. This is where individual responsibility comes in. I may feel sorry for someone who suffers one of the above problems, but I am not responsible for that person. Financially or morally. It's immoral to make a law to take money from my family to fix what the other brought on to himself.

If the problem is congenital then life gave that person a lemmon. We all feel bad for sick little babies, and we may mail in our donations. But it's still immoral to make a law to take money from me just in case another baby is born with congenital problem.

Dennis: Will your health care program treat crack babies with our money? That's another case of irresponsibility.

You know what pisses me off about welfare? The 2nd, 3rd, and 4th generation bums. They drink and party when the welfare check arrives. Bitch when their rent is due. Unwed mothers who keeps having more babies so they get more allowance from welfare.

It is one thing to help out someone down on his luck, or some unwed mother abandoned. It is quite another to reward parasitic behavior.

You know why big government is bad, right? I see proof of it each time a public employee yells at me, 'next!' I saw proof of it in court to appeal property assessment. I saw proof of it in traffic court. I saw proof of it in welfare lines. Oh sure I understand that the public employees are swamped, tired, and therefore impatient, rude, and holier than thou. But I also remember it's the flaming liberals who created those jobs, and the people in those jobs asked for it.

yenyin

[This message has been edited by yy (edited August 08, 2000).]