Test results of various vintage 38 Spl loads.

[aspen1964]

Remington 158 gr...late 60s-early 70s..840 fps
Peters 158 gr...50s...800 fps
Western Super-X 158 gr...mid-late 60s...810 fps
Western 150 gr metal-piercing...mid-late 60s...1000 fps
Remington 158 gr Hi-Speed...50s...920 fps

test gun was a WW2 Colt Commando(Official Police)..4"

the definite possibility of age and powder degradation must be weighed...there were no duds...these were average muzzle speeds...
I also shot for the first time a Colt Detective in 32 NP..mild, very pleasant gun to shoot even though a snub-nose...and having a lighter trigger than the Commando, shot a little better...

 

[Joe Mamma]

I always thought the "standard" 38 special bullet is 130 gr. I guess it's really 158 gr?

Joe Mamma

 

[atlctyslkr]

Yes 158gr is the standard, infact most guns with fixed sights are built for the 158 gr.

 

[BillCA]

The 158gr projectile is the standard bullet weight for the .38 Special.

S&W still uses a 158gr bullet to test fire their guns and (supposedly) verify that it hits close to point of aim.

The 130gr FMJ round is a fairly recent invention, showing up in the 1990s as I recall.

What I find interesting is today's lower velocities in most manufacturers.

Winchester Super-X 158gr RNL - 755 fps
Winchester Super-X 158gr LSWC 755 fps (plated)
Remington & UMC.... 158gr RNL - 755 fps (also LSWC)
Federal/Amer-Eagle 158gr RNL - 770 fps
Black Hills Remanufa 158gr LSWC - 850 fps

What constitutes a +P load today is the typical .38 Special load of yesterday. We used to always have .38 special loads in the 800-900 fps range when we were reloading.

 

[steveno]

the 130 grain 38 special load has been around for over 40 years because the is what the air force used in their S & W m-15 revolvers used by the sky cops

 

[BillCA]

You are correct - I'd forgotten about the military .38 Special "ball" ammo.

As I recall, the military was simply a round nose FMJ which is why we never fired them very much. I was thinking of the current truncated cone style FMJ 130 grain ammo.

 

[Hotdog1911]

38 spl. WWII style.

130 grain copper FMJ, unknown manufacturer, unkown speed and cartridge over all length. Ammo was U.S. Military, box dated early 1940's. I recovered and weighed the bullet for fun. Discarded the brass and box; didn't know any better at the time. Circa 1974.

I understand that LAPD used 38 spl. 200 lead round nose in the 40's & 50's. Can anyone confirm that?

The dog.

 

[SaxonPig]

Thanks for the info on the vintage ammo. I believe that current loads are a little down from years past and I agree strongly that factory +P is hardly a powerhouse. The old standard load was a 158 bullet at 800-840 FPS and +P is a 125@925. Doesn't sound like any real gain to me, given the loss in bullet weight.

As I recall (and I could be wrong) the LAPD carried 158 RN ammo for many years until upgrading to (?) to the semi-wadcutter lead bullet of the same weight at the same velocity. I never heard of any 200 grain loads issued or used by the LAPD.

 

[aspen1964]

I forgot to test some of my 200 gr. super police (next time)..also there were some standard loads that dropped down into the 750-780 fps range... believe it was age that caused the occasional low readings...the remingon hi-speeds should have done as well as the western m.p. but again I think the possibility of degrading powder may be the reason...i was quite impressed with the metal-piercing rounds..will have to keep a permanent stash aside...the colt op sure is a nice substantial revolver to have in which to shoot some of these occasionally..

 

[michael t]

So todays loads are in same ball park as my old 38S&W loads 146gr at 770fps ThankYou lawyers. Whats next 357 at 850fps.

 

[BlueTrain]

Those are interesting results. I am surprised that one achieved 1000 fps. Perhaps there is some justification for today's "caliber inflation," though caliber infatuation would be more like it. On the other hand, I recall how Skeeter Skelton, I believe it was, described how the .38 special came to be regarded as a big cartridge. Among other things, he said it was "hazily." Before the .38 special became the norm for police use, .32 and .38 S&W were more common. I wonder how popular the .45 Colt was in the civilized East?

All the older Colt revolvers were nice and I was always surprised that you don't see more used ones around. Maybe there never were that many, relatively speaking. They were stiff compared with S&W's and a lot of people preferred S&W's for that reason and some of those people thought the older long action was better than the later short action. Probably the same sort of people who think a pinned barrel is better.

Regarding the velocities again, it is possible that significant (don't ask what significant is) variations in the numbers will result from using different revolvers, though I couldn't spectulate on what could be expected from different brands. There were scads of other revolver manufacturers but only Colt and S&W made the larger ones until Ruger came along. All the others were mostly pocket revolvers in a lot of variations in .38 S&W and .32 and even .22. All were interesting but the quality of some was better than others.

 

[BillCA]

In my early days of reloading, I recall routinely loading .38 special 158gr ammo to the low 900 fps range. Commonly it was around the 850fps range for "range fodder". Yup, just dug out an old box with the reloading label still on it (and only 12 rounds left in the box) - 7.1gr Blue Dot - 930fps - Speer 158gr JSP. Comments: Accurate, Clean, QFS (Quick Following Shots).

A quick check on some of the websites of ammo companies also shows that most are now printing results using a 4" barrel instead of a 6" barrel which will account for some (but not all) of the velocity loss.

Other notebook entries:
Warning! These loadings are from 1974 and are outdated. Modern powders may produce more or less pressure than is safe to use with these loads. Use a recent reloading manual and work up your loads carefully. Neither the author nor TFL is responsible if you use this information to damage yourself, others or your firearm!
.38 Special
Speer 146gr SWC-HP, 10.xgr WW630, 1025fps, "Stout, 10+ Accuracy"
Rem. 125gr JHP, 10.xgr WW630, 1100fps, "Model-28 Perfect"
.357 Magnum:
Speer 146gr SWC-HP, 14.xgr WW630, 1350fps, "2-in @25yds, LOUD!"
Hornady 146gr SWC-SP, 18.xgr WW296, 1440fps, "Dynamite, 3.5"@25yds"
Speer 158gr JSP, 17.xgr WW296, 1300fps, "Best M28 Mag. Load. Flash/Boom"
.41 Magnum
Rem. 210gr JSP, 17.xgr WW630, 1330fps, "Bullseye accurate, deerslayer"
Speer 200gr JSP, 19.xgr H2400, 1400fps, "Ouch! Dynamite! 5"@50 yds"


SaxonPig,

The LAPD issued 158gr LRN :barf: ammo up into the early 1960's. At that time they started moving to the 158gr LSWC based on some forensic observations of several shootings where the BG was hardly affected and continued to play havoc. Elmer Keith was cited as a firearms expert (and may have been consulted, I dunno). In the early/mid 70's, LAPD issued a new round called the "L.A. Manstopper" which was a 146gr SJ-LSWC-HP pushed at 900-950fps. At this time, LAPD issued either the Model 14 or the Model 15 and officers were permitted to purchase their own wheelguns if desired. Magnum loads were verbotten however (though they showed up in a number of LAPD shootings). Lots of officers carried Model 19's or Colt Lawman or Troopers.

Sometime in the later 70's LAPD switched again, to a 125gr JHP .38 special load from Winchester or Remington that pushed 1,000fps and performed pretty well. Lots of LAPD were already buying Lee Juras's Super-Vel ammo out of their own pockets for the perceived advantage (125gr JHP @1100fps IIRC).

I'm told by a "reliable source" that after the infamous LAPD vs. SLA shootout an informal survey was taken by a training officer. He found that every single street cop he interviewed who had a .357 revolver had reloaded with .357 Magnum ammo, contrary to policy. Surprisingly he found that 80% of the officers were using Federal 158gr .357 ammo rated at 1350 fps in a 6" tube.

 

[BlueTrain]

Looking over some tables last night for a reply to another thread, I noticed that barrel lengths were given for the velocity results for each cartridge. But sometimes different barrel lenghts were listed for different loads for the same caliber, which was odd. Still, the "metal piercing" .38 special loads were listed at over 1,000 fps. The .357 magnum was listed at 1400 fps, which is a nice round number, from both 8 1/2 and 8 3/4 inch barrels. I suspect some of the figures may be a little doubtful when fired from someone's own gun.

I never hear anyone talk about the published numbers for rifle cartridges but I rather miss seeing the pine board penetration results for pistols.

 

[44 AMP]

Every one is different

Every gun is different. They may be faster or slower than factory numbers. And it can be be a measurable amount. I ran a test back in the mid 80s, with three different 6" .357s, and there was a spread of 100fps between the high and low gun. The ammo was consistant in each gun, just different speeds in different guns.

This much difference is not common, but not rare. Each gun is an indivdual, so don't get torqued about not matching published velocity figures. Even with the same barrel length, your gun amy be "slower" or "faster" than published specs.

I do agree however, that factory ammo made recently does not seem to have the same authority (in some calibers) as ammo made in some previous decades. I find this very noticable in some .357 Mag loadings. On the other hand, US made 9mm (Luger) ammo is generally "hotter" than it used to be. Of course, in the old days, the only US 9mm ammo was 124gr FMJ.

 

[BlueTrain]

It is well to remember that some loads were reduced for good reasons, none of which have anything to do with lawyers. You might also remember that at one time you could buy super powerful cars but I think lawyers, more likely insurance companies, had something to do with their disappearance.

However, to return to cartridges, it is true that some of the earlier loads for different cartridges were hotter than later production. In some cases, guns weren't blowing up but were breaking, which was evidently a serious enough problem to cause the load to be reduced. The only example I can think of this is the first Colt Browning automatics in .38 ACP. Even though the guns were manufactured for 30 years with little change, the design of the pistols was such that they were not as strong as the 1911. Eventually, of course, the 1911 was chambered in .38 ACP +P, only it was called the .38 Super. It is a wonder that the dimensions remained the same. I doubt there are many .38 ACP pistols being fired anymore, yet I have seen cases for sale on the shelf.

The .357 magnum, or more correctly, the .357 S&W Magnum, is a different story. It was a real hotrod when it came out but with only lead bullets, it was hard on barrels (in the sense that it leaded the barrels badly). Same with the .44 magnum (.44 Remington Magnum). That was only solved by the introduction of jacketed bullets or bullets with washer-type bases, or with hard cast lead bullets. It seemed to take a while for that to catch on with the .357 but they came alone pretty soon after the .44 magnum came out. That's only a little part of the story. By the time jacketed bullets came along, the .357 was already being chambered in K-frame revolvers, which may have been the reason "real" .357 loads became less popular.

It's sort of a circular thing.