Tell me about the 50/70

[BJung]

I've wanted the Swedish M67 Rolling Blocks for years and have looked up what little information there is about in on the web and youtube.

The question I have is how accurate can that rifle with its original barrel be? The barrel, from what I read, was their musket barrel refitted on to rolling block receiver. I cast so I could have a good mould made to cast good bullets for it. What type of groups can you get at 100 yards with it? Will it shoot as well as an American 50/70. And, if by chance the barrel is too far gone and I change the barrel, what is the best accuracy I can expect from it?

 

[Sarge]

I love old rolling blocks and have been tempted by these M67s myself. I can't tell you everything about them but here's a link to an awful lot of it.

http://dutchman.rebooty.com/rb.html

 

[ligonierbill]

I really can't say anything about the old Swede, but Mike Venturino got groups between 2" and 4" from a modern reproduction rolling block 50-70 (5 shots @ 100). I'm still working on it, but I think I can do as well with my rebarrelled original Remington action. Doubt I can do better, however.

What caliber M67 are you considering? The original was a rimfire.

 

[Tidewater_Kid]

Most of the center fire converted Swedish Rolling Block are in 12.7x44R. It's close to 50/70, not the same. You can make brass from 348 brass or .50 Alaskan. The .50 Alaskan works best for me. I use 50/70 bullets sized to .510.

 

[BJung]

Are these antique rolling block rifles as equally as accurate as muzzle loaders that proceeded them and the only difference is how the bullet is chambered? Will the receiver hold up? I don't want it to blow up in my face. Do you 50/70 shooters shoot a Pyrodex, Black Powder, or a mix of smokeless with Black Powder. Is there a danger in pressure when using smokeless? Can you get away with using range scrap to cast bullets or do you rely on pure lead?

 

[ligonierbill]

Muzzleloaders covers a lot of ground, but assuming we're talking about rifled muskets of Civil War vintage, there should not be a major difference. Of course, accuracy will vary between rifles of the same model and between different loads.

I load either 1 1/2 Fg holy black or Alliant Black MZ in my 50-70. BMZ is no longer sold, but a similar perchlorate based powder is American Pioneer Powder. Pyrodex is a different formulation. I have not tried it. Regards smokeless, Lyman lists a number of tested loads. My one try with IMR-4895 proved inconsistent. In that fat case, safe loads did not ignite well, resulting in disappointing velocity and unburned powder. This with CCI 250 primers. But Lyman did OK in their tests. Whatever you do, do not mix black and smokeless. I have only chrono'd two loads thus far:

450 gr Lyman 515141 (0.512) 65 gr BMZ 1,320/16.6 (Mike Venturino got 1,274 using 70 gr 2Fg - the BP substitutes have a little more "juice".)

500 gr paper patched (0.504) 70 gr 1 1/2Fg 1,148/7.3

Both from a 28" barrel. I will be staying with holy black and saving my supply of BMZ for 44-40 and shotshells. With regard to safety, you should have someone who knows old guns inspect anything you acquire and remember what they were designed for. Then you'll be fine.

PS: I buy my bullets, but they are all 20:1 lead:tin. Pure lead is likely too soft.

 

[BJung]

What do you black powder shooters do to improve the accuracy of your bullets? Do you size your bullets .001" greater than the groove to groove diameter of the bore? Do you powder coat your cast bullets? Do you vary the COAL like smokeless cartridges? This varies the charge because I recall you need to fill your cases full, yes?

 

[Jim Watson]

Accuracy of military surplus breechloaders will be of military quality. A friend's .50-70 Sharps conversion is about Minute of Comanche accurate... including the horse. But it is at the maximum groove diameter that they used the original bore for; anything larger was relined. Another friend's .45-70 Trapdoor Springfield is considerably more accurate.

I shot BPCR silhouette and midrange for a while. My .38-55 bullets were about .0005" over groove diameter, that was shooting the bullets as cast. A tighter fit would have required a custom mould.
I shot bullets about .003" over groove diameter in my modern Browning "Highwall" .40-65. I got better accuracy with bullets sized to fill the throat without concern for the bore.

I never saw anybody to powder coat BPCR bullets but maybe somebody is by now. The main requirement is a bullet lube that will keep the fouling soft and plenty of it. SPG brand is good, but there are others.

 

[Tidewater_Kid]

I use my homemade recipe of bee's wax to lube my black powder rounds. My Swedish Rolling block shoots well with the .510 sized bullets and 55 grains of 2F. You will have to size the bore to see what yours will need and try various loads if you want accuracy. Yes you have to fill the case with black powder rounds. I use cards over the powder.

 

[ligonierbill]

A couple resources for you: Shooting Buffalo Rifles of the Old West by Mike Venturino, and Single Shot Exchange Magazine.

Things that affect accuracy include the weight and type of bullet. I've found that 480 and 515 FP bullets from Buffalo Arms seem to give me the best accuracy. Your rifle may like something else. Although it's all charcoal, saltpeter and sulfur, some folks like one brand of holy black over another. On the recommendation of an experienced rifleman, I load Olde Eynsford 1 1/2 Fg. The 1 1/2 signifies that the granule size range is about the top half of 2Fg. Card on top of the powder? I use one, but I have read of others who found no difference. With any loaded cartridge, quality and consistency is your friend. I'm still learning the paper patch technique. A neat, consistent patch will shoot better.

Have fun, and good shooting!

 

[BJung]

Tidewater. What are the best groups you've been able to print with your M67 Swedish Rolling block? What is the card for?

 

[Tidewater_Kid]

I would say 3-4 inches at 100 yards, but I am no great target shooter. Don't have the eyes for it anymore. The card protects the bullet from the burning powder. Keeps the lead bottom safe. Lyman's Black Powder Handbook is a good reference.

 

[BJung]

Tidewater. Is the M67 equal in accuracy as 50/70 rifles of the same period? I suppose the balance and feel of rolling blocks like this are like cap lock muskets?

 

[Tidewater_Kid]

I would say about the same as my 50/70 Springfield Trapdoors. Mu rolling block is one very long rifle, but still has good balance.

 

[BJung]

Tidewater. What was the condition of the bore in your M67 when you purchased it? I know that every gun will be different. I've had incredible luck with smokeless rifles having good bores but I don't know about a vintage BP rifle? Was there pitting in your bore and did that effect accuracy? I love the idea of having and shooting an antique rifle that's almost 200 years old. Trying to hunt with it would have been a nice idea too but in CA, they banned lead bullets for hunting! Are there lead-free bullets for BP rifles?

 

[Tidewater_Kid]

The bore of mine was in amazingly good shape for a rifle made in 1871. I haven't shot any lead free bullets, but you might look at this list here:

https://wildlife.ca.gov/Hunting/Nonlead-Ammunition/Certified

California approved bullets.

 

[Tidewater_Kid]

This might also be an option for making your own.

https://www.rotometals.com/lead-free-bullet-casting-alloy-bismuth-based/