"Telephone booth" CCW pistol conundrum

[bald1]

I have a couple of commander sized 1911s along with a "chopped" BHP that serve as my CCW "go to" weaps. But during hot weather I find these to not become as concealed as I'd like. This due to a combination of my particular build and normal clothes. Meaning a T-shirt prints easily and I'm not big into Don Ho shirts or photog vests here in this area. So a P-11 with factory belt clip solves the concealment problem.

But, I guess I'm just plain old school, as I like to practice with my carry pieces.

The problem with the P-11, despite having been fluffed and buffed, is that its trigger plain sucks which is further exacerbated by my short dominant hand trigger finger. I've deburred / slightly contoured the frame where it fits the web of my hand to obviate irritation I get there after shooting the thing. Regardless more than a couple clips it becomes most uncomfortable. The gun itself is absolutely no fun to shoot. The upside is that it has been flat out reliable always firing for every trigger pull regardless of ammo choice.

Okay! Okay! So the P-11 is no range or target gun. It is, as a friend likes to describe, a "telephone booth" gun meant for close range self defense. As such it doesn't have to be "fun" to shoot. It just needs to be damned reliable and capable of hitting what it's pointed at.

So why do I continue to have an "itch" to get a replacement for the P-11? Should I, like my friend contends, leave well enough alone? Is it so wrong to want a "telephone booth" CCW warm weather gun that also is pleasant to practice with? Or for the size weapon we're talking about (remember light weight small profile warm weather ease of concealment without printing) and a caliber of significant (meaning at least 9mm) is that simply an non sequitur?

Thoughts?

 

[AZAK]

But during hot weather I find these to not become as concealed as I'd like.

Snowing like a big dog here, pretty much all day. Move much further North, problem solved!

If you do not choose option #1, then I would recommend a better concealment holster for the 1911s. I personally usually carry OWB (Granted that I am wearing a sweatshirt indoors at the moment, and rarely am just wearing a t-shirt at any point year round.)

There are a number of CC options that work with a t-shirt quite well. Some IWB holsters, Thunderwear, CC undershirts, bellybands, etc... not having to worry about this, except when I travel down to the lower 49, I rarely use IWB (Simply Rugged and DeSantis when I do) but have never had any problems CCing even Government size 1911s.

 

[bald1]

Done all that with IWB, belts, and even suspenders. I have great leather from Andrews, Kramer, and others. Belly belts and crotch carries are not things I like.... sorry. Like I said, its my particular build which makes weap handles print easily on my hip with light clothing forcing the use of a smaller piece. You obviously are built differently.

 

[AZAK]

Very nice set ups! I see a Simply Rugged.

its my particular build which makes weap handles print easily on my hip with light clothing forcing the use of a smaller piece. You obviously are built differently.

Emphasis by AZAK

Maybe, maybe. Looks like option #1 for you my friend! (Further North, much further!) Or maybe more or less ice cream? (Change your shape?!)

Another thought, what about Colt Officers? I recently got a NIB (made a few years back) one, easier to CC.

Good Luck!

 

[(BH)]

Sounds like somebody needs to look into something like a PM9 or PPS. Fun to shoot, easy to conceal.

 

[bald1]

Or maybe more or less ice cream? (Change your shape?!)

Not so much ice cream (although I do love it) but a heart attack 4 years ago along with some neurological crap that further limits some types of activities. As a 60+ year old retiree too (Retired "mustang" naval officer & retired "zoomie" federal manager) my physical prowess isn't what it once was regardless.

Sounds like somebody needs to look into something like a PM9 or PPS

Ironically I was handling a couple of weaps at dealers today including a Colt New Agent, Kahr CW9, and Walther PPS among others. My friend works at one of these places where he repeated his comments about my P-11. He's just trying to look out for me

 

[bald1]

So do I take it from the meager response here that my "itch" to have a close in self defense weapon (nee telephone booth weap) that is reasonably enjoyable to practice with is a legitimate position?

 

[AZAK]

from the meager response here

Oh, you cut me... to the bone! I better go get some more ice cream! (First aid and all!)

Colt New Agent, Kahr CW9, and Walther PPS

Sounds like you are headed in the right direction to me.

 

[Brandy]

Revolver dare I

suggest a Ruger LCR with a Dillon no print through in pocket holster?

Carry my S&W Airweight here (at the southeast end of US 1) all the time in lightweight Columbia fishing shorts. Have never been "made".

 

[firespec35]

Try a taurus 709 or a s&w 3913

 

[twhidd]

"Telephone booth gun". Is that anything like a "poker table" gun?

 

[qcpunk]

baldy, I see absolutely no reason why your carry gun has to be unconfrotable to shoot. I believe there are so many options out there that it just doesn't make sense to carry a gun which you do not look forward to shooting. You're definately on track towards some fine shooting concealment pistols; Walther, Kahr, Taurus, Ruger, any many many many more.

I see no reason why you can't have your cake and eat it too

Side note: you may want to try searching PPS here, there was a very recent thread with some opinions regarding PPS .40 recoil.

Found it: http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=405574

And http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=386147

 

[Chesster]

In my youth and IWB, I've carried a Commander, Sig 228, G19, G17, Sig 226, BHP, 1911A1, CZ85, and a Walther P5. Now I dress for comfort and prefer a nice relaxing pocket revolver.

 

[Andrewh]

I carry a full size 1911. The holster and belt make the difference.
Crossbreed supertuck ftw.

I am in texas, and can carry it in shorts and a t-shirt all day.
nothing baggy, but not skin tight either. 240 pounds and 5' 9" makes me a bit round as well.
Now I will say my next 1911 will be a commander or a cco. Just easier to sit with that 3/4 inch less barrel.

 

[bald1]

"Telephone booth gun". Is that anything like a "poker table" gun?

I suppose so Todd. I'd never heard that expression before but admit that it indeed conveys the notion of a short range defense weapon.

I carry a full size 1911. The holster and belt make the difference.
Crossbreed supertuck ftw.

I carry my 1911s easily too. And I have plenty of excellent IWB holsters and solid sturdy belts. Please re-read my opening comments.

The grip on my pistols, including my CBOB, prints with thin summer attire period. So having something smaller and thinner that seats further down into my pants is called for. The Kel-Tec P-11 fully satisfies that requirement but simply sucks to practice with. Hence my conundrum.... either finding a warm weather ultra compact pistol in a decent caliber that is enjoyable to practice with or, as my friend advocates, staying with the P-11 as it is reliable, hits what its aimed at, and as a "telephone booth" self defense pistol the P-11 isn't supposed to be a range or target gun (read fun to shoot).

Now I dress for comfort and prefer a nice relaxing pocket revolver.

Chesster, I've owned snubbies before and still have an excellent 4" S&W 681 357Mag as well as an even older 6" Taurus 357Mag. Never did get comfortable with those snubbies so I sold 'em off. I guess I've always been a semi-auto kind of guy. Shoot 'em better than wheelguns too. Appreciate the thought though.

I'm still weighing things.... a new piece such as a PPS, CW9, etc., to simply standing pat with the P-11.

 

[2cooltoolz]

Well, I almost didn't respond, because it's getting so cliche. You're a 1911 guy, I'm a SIG guy. I've been through a lot of CCW variations, trying to find the Goldilocks gun (This one feels juuust right!). I found the one that made me quit looking (OK, fingers crossed), about a year and a half ago and I'm still pleased as punch with it. Kahr PM9.
I've bought and sold other guns since, larger and smaller, but the Kahr is always the one I grab as I go out the door.
If my door opened into Iraq or somewhere, it wouldn't be my choice, but fortunately, I live in Texas.
It's not my #1 range gun, but I do enjoy shooting it, and it's not my bedside gun, but only because I want the big momma next to me there (don't tell my wife I said that!).

I really love my PM9 and recommend it to anyone who asks.

I sometimes carry it IWB:

But 90% of the time, in my pocket:

 

[bald1]

2cooltoolz,

I applaud your post Sir! You've found your holy grail which indeed validates my "itch" as opposed to my friend's counsel. As an aside I like SIGs but unfortunately even equipped with factory "short" triggers, all (but I think one model) has a trigger reach too long to suit me properly.

Actually I haven't seen any post here which universally queues up with my friend's position. It is the way I was thinking to begin with and still am, although trying to locate the "right" piece is no small undertaking as no one locally has a rental operation where one could try out various models.

Here's been my feelings about several candidates thusfar. Again without having been able to shoot 'em, just fondle and dry fire where sales staff allowed. I have handled 380 and 9x18 weapons but ruled them out based on caliber.

Walther PPS - Spendy, good grip feel, trigger feels weird, no spare mag included, sight rail unnecessary, mag release unconventional, QuickSafe feature too gimmicky. Current promotion has factory shipping spare mag free.
Taurus 709 - Great grip feel, one of the better trigger feels, concerns about Taurus QC and lousy service support. Most I handled had sloppy (insecure?) magazine seating. Also some question about case support near the ramp.
Kahr CW9 - cheapest of the polymer framed Kahrs. Long trigger pull, only one magazine supplied, slide release would need to be deburred, grip surface overly abrasive.
Kahr P9 - whaaaa? >$150 over the CW9 for a dovetailed front sight, spare mag, and unnecessary/unwanted polygonal rifling? Other comments same as CW9.
Kahr PM9 - Spendy, smallest of the polymer framed Kahrs, grip a bit too short for comfort, spare mag. Other comments same as CW9.
Kel-Tec PF9 - simply not enough of an improvement over my P-11
Colt New Agent - Expensive. Lightweight for a 1911 Officer's style, 3" barrel reduces 45acp performance although tailored ammo is now available, unconventional take down. Grip isn't really all that much smaller than bobbed frame I already have from a concealability standpoint.
Glock 26C - ergonomics and trigger flat do not work for me.
Taurus PT745 - single stack version of PT145. Same basic concerns as 709 above.

With an unnaturally short dominant hand trigger finger (>1/4" shorter than my non-dominant finger), none of the following provide a suitable short enough reach for proper trigger purchase with the weapon held square in the web of my hand:
Bersa BP9cc
S&W M&P9c
Bersa Thunder UC9
CZ Rami 2075P
Beretta PX4
Ruger SR9c
Bersa Thunder UC45
Taurus PT145

 

[qcpunk]

Bald1,

Walther PPS - Spendy, good grip feel, trigger feels weird, no spare mag included, sight rail unnecessary, mag release unconventional, QuickSafe feature too gimmicky.

If I may, While yes, The mag release on the PPS is unconventional, after a few mag changes, I think you may find it to be very natural.

Of course, that would depend on what muscle memory you may have, but I find the mag release on the PPS and P99 to be much quicker and "natural" than conventional button release. Your shooting hand stays in exactly the same as when firing, simply drop the trigger finger down along the trigger guard.

I can only offer very limited information on the others though. But I am familiar with the Kahr CW9 vs the P9 and PM9. Kahr makes some great CCW firearms, albeit, expensive. The CW9 is simply a much cheaper model compared to the rest of their line; the slide is less finished, there is far less detail and time spent on engravings on the slide, and most of your small parts are Metal Injection Molded. Some people have strong feelings towards MIM parts, I think it's important that it be brought to attention if you were one such person.

Would you mind if I asked why you do not like polygonal rifling?

 

[bald1]

qcpunk,

Thanks for the feedback here.

You're probably correct about getting used to the mag release on the PPS.

I was unaware that the CW series makes extensive use of MIM parts. While some if made correctly are okay, on principle I'd rather avoid MIM stuff. Addendum: all I can find is that the slide stop is MIM....nothing else.

As for the polygonal rifling, it really isn't any more accurate plus Kahr warns against the use of lead bullets. I prefer having the options to use copper clad or lead ammo. And yes I know I could still use lead if I make absolutely sure the barrel is cleaned pristinely before shooting any jacketed ammo. Still.... an unwanted pain I'd sooner avoid.

 

[qcpunk]

Bald1, As for the MIM parts, that came mostly from comparing the CW40 (same as CW9), with the PPS at my local shop. It seems like Kahr is using more MIM parts in the CW series to help keep it in the mid-range on price, although I will admit stright up, that I really do not know how many parts or exactly which ones are MIM. It was an observation and discussion while we field stripped one on the counter.

Is MIM an inferior part, I don't know, I don't have any super strong feelings on it, but I know that some people do. Just thought it was worth mentioning

OOh, Thinkin ahead there on the poly rifling, I like it. I could understand where the polygonal rifling may have more "high pressure" contact areas (that is, where there are larger areas of greater surface contact between the bullet and barrel). Are they suggesting that this leads to a higher degree of leading?

I'd like to know, as I'm plan to start reloading a small percentage of Lead rounds to suppliment my jacketed bullets bill, and this would be helpful in the future with firearm/ammo selection.